Dowell Loggains SI Article

[ah59396]

Appreciate you sharing the article, but besides it being poorly written, it was a pretty depressing account of what the current landscape is. And should DL enjoy any success he’s outta here with the first good offer.

What’s depressing about it? Sounds like a microcosm of American life to me. And yes, outside of a shooting star in Jerry Moore, folks are always going to be looking to move up in their profession. I don’t see that as depressing.

I know I’m in the minority here, but I’m never going to love what college sports have turned into. Entitled teenagers shaking down pretty much everyone so they can pretend to be a student athlete for a year before they go shakedown another school, all while guys like DL grind and grind year after year coaching those kids for a fraction of the money. That’s what’s depressing to me. And no it’s not a microcosm of American life. It’s actually the opposite of what American life is. No entry level employee walks in and makes more than everyone else.

Not trying to pick a fight with you here, but it ain’t the “entitled teenagers” that built this model.

It’s a bunch of rich old guys up at the top that decided they wanted to be even richer that’s made college sports what it is.

These kids are just playing the game they’ve grown up in.

[rbarthle17]

Appreciate you sharing the article, but besides it being poorly written, it was a pretty depressing account of what the current landscape is. And should DL enjoy any success he’s outta here with the first good offer.

What’s depressing about it? Sounds like a microcosm of American life to me. And yes, outside of a shooting star in Jerry Moore, folks are always going to be looking to move up in their profession. I don’t see that as depressing.

I know I’m in the minority here, but I’m never going to love what college sports have turned into. Entitled teenagers shaking down pretty much everyone so they can pretend to be a student athlete for a year before they go shakedown another school, all while guys like DL grind and grind year after year coaching those kids for a fraction of the money. That’s what’s depressing to me. And no it’s not a microcosm of American life. It’s actually the opposite of what American life is. No entry level employee walks in and makes more than everyone else.

Not trying to pick a fight with you here, but it ain’t the “entitled teenagers” that built this model.

It’s a bunch of rich old guys up at the top that decided they wanted to be even richer that’s made college sports what it is.

These kids are just playing the game they’ve grown up in.

Exactly. People blaming the teenagers who were used and discarded while coaches and schools make billions of dollars have the source of the problem 100% backwards in their heads.

Now, that being said, the pendulum has swung so far the other direction that it has its own set of issues. So that needs to be dealt with. And you can't just say "go back to the way it was", that horse left the barn and is gone.

To be honest now is the time for a 1-A/1-AA split to happen, there are clear haves and have nots and this needs to be separated. If you want to be with the "haves", then you have to be all-in. It's been minor league professional sports at the highest levels for decades, treat it as such. Make those kids school employees and be done with the farce of those kids being student-athletes. Set not only a salary cap, but a salary floor as well. And it's every single player getting paid, not just the top end of the roster.

Schools can decide what program(s) will be in the pay-for-play model for that season, and per-sport conferences will be set up and tweaked as necessary. Programs that opt out of pay-for-play will be set up in regional conferences to contain costs. Title IX and minimum number of program standards must be maintained in all this.

There needs to be a clear line drawn. The needs of the haves and have nots could not be further apart, it's time to stop trying to find one solution that meets everyone's needs. Make the split and move on.

[AtlAppMan]

Agree it was the author, not Loggains making that Arkansas reference.
Now that I think about it, It appears that most Alumni don’t actually work out as HC. Maybe it is the pressure, internally and externally, that creates the rifts.

Great article on subject.

Here is a key quote that we all should remember


“ Regardless of the campus where a coach cut his teeth, the terms of employment remain clear. In college football, the long-term prognosis isn’t stable. “Either we’re going to get fired or we’re going to leave,” former Tulsa head coach Bill Blankenship said. Blankenship coached at Tulsa, his alma mater, from 2011 to 2014. “The odds of retiring at the school that hired you is a pretty low percentage.”

But most coaching hires don't work out, period. Do alumni do worse than everyone else? I don't know that answer.

I don’t think it makes a difference with on-field results. It was probably just recency bias for me to say that with a few notable coaches flaming out and being fired in recent seasons like Clark, Frost (Nebraska), Avalos (Boise)

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/it ... lp-either/

Good article and here is a great excerpt we should all keep in mind going forward.

Regardless of the campus where a coach cut his teeth, the terms of employment remain clear. In college football, the long-term prognosis isn’t stable. “Either we’re going to get fired or we’re going to leave,” former Tulsa head coach Bill Blankenship said. Blankenship coached at Tulsa, his alma mater, from 2011 to 2014. “The odds of retiring at the school that hired you is a pretty low percentage.”

[ah59396]

Agree it was the author, not Loggains making that Arkansas reference.
Now that I think about it, It appears that most Alumni don’t actually work out as HC. Maybe it is the pressure, internally and externally, that creates the rifts.

Great article on subject.

Here is a key quote that we all should remember


“ Regardless of the campus where a coach cut his teeth, the terms of employment remain clear. In college football, the long-term prognosis isn’t stable. “Either we’re going to get fired or we’re going to leave,” former Tulsa head coach Bill Blankenship said. Blankenship coached at Tulsa, his alma mater, from 2011 to 2014. “The odds of retiring at the school that hired you is a pretty low percentage.”

But most coaching hires don't work out, period. Do alumni do worse than everyone else? I don't know that answer.

I don’t think it makes a difference with on-field results. It was probably just recency bias for me to say that with a few notable coaches flaming out and being fired in recent seasons like Clark, Frost (Nebraska), Avalos (Boise)

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/it ... lp-either/

Good article and here is a great excerpt we should all keep in mind going forward.

Regardless of the campus where a coach cut his teeth, the terms of employment remain clear. In college football, the long-term prognosis isn’t stable. “Either we’re going to get fired or we’re going to leave,” former Tulsa head coach Bill Blankenship said. Blankenship coached at Tulsa, his alma mater, from 2011 to 2014. “The odds of retiring at the school that hired you is a pretty low percentage.”

I’d love to know how many FBS coaches have been at the helm of a specific school for say, 10 years, since 1990. It’s gotta be a remarkably small amount.

[t4pizza]

Agree it was the author, not Loggains making that Arkansas reference.
Now that I think about it, It appears that most Alumni don’t actually work out as HC. Maybe it is the pressure, internally and externally, that creates the rifts.

Great article on subject.

Here is a key quote that we all should remember


“ Regardless of the campus where a coach cut his teeth, the terms of employment remain clear. In college football, the long-term prognosis isn’t stable. “Either we’re going to get fired or we’re going to leave,” former Tulsa head coach Bill Blankenship said. Blankenship coached at Tulsa, his alma mater, from 2011 to 2014. “The odds of retiring at the school that hired you is a pretty low percentage.”

But most coaching hires don't work out, period. Do alumni do worse than everyone else? I don't know that answer.

I don’t think it makes a difference with on-field results. It was probably just recency bias for me to say that with a few notable coaches flaming out and being fired in recent seasons like Clark, Frost (Nebraska), Avalos (Boise)

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/it ... lp-either/

Good article and here is a great excerpt we should all keep in mind going forward.

Regardless of the campus where a coach cut his teeth, the terms of employment remain clear. In college football, the long-term prognosis isn’t stable. “Either we’re going to get fired or we’re going to leave,” former Tulsa head coach Bill Blankenship said. Blankenship coached at Tulsa, his alma mater, from 2011 to 2014. “The odds of retiring at the school that hired you is a pretty low percentage.”

I’d love to know how many FBS coaches have been at the helm of a specific school for say, 10 years, since 1990. It’s gotta be a remarkably small amount.

Here is a list from around this time last year (some are gone).

https://www.espn.com/college-football/s ... ll-coaches

[Bigdaddyg1]

One aspect of the “pay the poor abused players” argument that kills me is that blanket assumption that schools have made “billions” off of these indentured servants. Zero of them has ever been forced to play a sport and I seriously doubt that outside of maybe 40 schools the rest have either operated at a loss or have barely broken even. I would love to know how much money the App State athletic program has netted over the last 20-30 years. Same goes for the many other schools at or below our level. I get that those big boys have had plenty of surplus but it’s a completely different playing field.

[JTApps1]

One aspect of the “pay the poor abused players” argument that kills me is that blanket assumption that schools have made “billions” off of these indentured servants. Zero of them has ever been forced to play a sport and I seriously doubt that outside of maybe 40 schools the rest have either operated at a loss or have barely broken even. I would love to know how much money the App State athletic program has netted over the last 20-30 years. Same goes for the many other schools at or below our level. I get that those big boys have had plenty of surplus but it’s a completely different playing field.

This is why Revenue Sharing is a bad idea for all but about 40 schools. Basically every G6 and some P4 programs rely on university and student subsidies to operate a program. Coaching salaries have gotten ridiculous, but people can't turn a blind eye to all of the funding put towards support staff and facilities that directly improve the experience of players. What App players enjoy today would make ever NFL player from just a decade or so ago jealous.

I wish football could operate separate of all other sports since the vast majority of money in college athletics revolves around it. Go back to separate regional conferences for all other sports that have their own TV deals while football has it's own levels within D1 based on the financial commitment each school wants to make.

[EastHallApp]

One aspect of the “pay the poor abused players” argument that kills me is that blanket assumption that schools have made “billions” off of these indentured servants. Zero of them has ever been forced to play a sport and I seriously doubt that outside of maybe 40 schools the rest have either operated at a loss or have barely broken even. I would love to know how much money the App State athletic program has netted over the last 20-30 years. Same goes for the many other schools at or below our level. I get that those big boys have had plenty of surplus but it’s a completely different playing field.

The "barely breaking even" argument has been made for years, but it's misleading. Sure, the schools are breaking even - because however much money they could take in, they find a way to spend.

That's why some college teams have far nicer locker room facilities than the NFL. It's why coaching salaries have ballooned. It's why staff sizes have grown larger and larger. It's why facilities are a constant arms race to keep up.

Obviously the scale at a place like App is much smaller than, say, LSU. But there's just no arguing with the fact that college football and basketball have generated a tremendous amount of revenue.

[ASUFan4863]

Great article on subject.

Here is a key quote that we all should remember


“ Regardless of the campus where a coach cut his teeth, the terms of employment remain clear. In college football, the long-term prognosis isn’t stable. “Either we’re going to get fired or we’re going to leave,” former Tulsa head coach Bill Blankenship said. Blankenship coached at Tulsa, his alma mater, from 2011 to 2014. “The odds of retiring at the school that hired you is a pretty low percentage.”

But most coaching hires don't work out, period. Do alumni do worse than everyone else? I don't know that answer.

I don’t think it makes a difference with on-field results. It was probably just recency bias for me to say that with a few notable coaches flaming out and being fired in recent seasons like Clark, Frost (Nebraska), Avalos (Boise)

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/it ... lp-either/

Good article and here is a great excerpt we should all keep in mind going forward.

Regardless of the campus where a coach cut his teeth, the terms of employment remain clear. In college football, the long-term prognosis isn’t stable. “Either we’re going to get fired or we’re going to leave,” former Tulsa head coach Bill Blankenship said. Blankenship coached at Tulsa, his alma mater, from 2011 to 2014. “The odds of retiring at the school that hired you is a pretty low percentage.”

I’d love to know how many FBS coaches have been at the helm of a specific school for say, 10 years, since 1990. It’s gotta be a remarkably small amount.

Here is a list from around this time last year (some are gone).

https://www.espn.com/college-football/s ... ll-coaches

Didn’t realize Doeren has been at NC State for so long. His new contract goes through the end of 2029 with a buyout equal to the remaining annual salary (~$6m/year). He should be able to at least eclipse the year 15 mark at the end of 2027 with that hefty buyout. I don’t see State coming up with a $20m+ buyout unless the proposed gambling tax revenue comes through. That may have been why the adjustment was made to give so much more to State.

[AppDawg]

One aspect of the “pay the poor abused players” argument that kills me is that blanket assumption that schools have made “billions” off of these indentured servants. Zero of them has ever been forced to play a sport and I seriously doubt that outside of maybe 40 schools the rest have either operated at a loss or have barely broken even. I would love to know how much money the App State athletic program has netted over the last 20-30 years. Same goes for the many other schools at or below our level. I get that those big boys have had plenty of surplus but it’s a completely different playing field.

The "barely breaking even" argument has been made for years, but it's misleading. Sure, the schools are breaking even - because however much money they could take in, they find a way to spend.

That's why some college teams have far nicer locker room facilities than the NFL. It's why coaching salaries have ballooned. It's why staff sizes have grown larger and larger. It's why facilities are a constant arms race to keep up.

Obviously the scale at a place like App is much smaller than, say, LSU. But there's just no arguing with the fact that college football and basketball have generated a tremendous amount of revenue.

I agree. For the longest time Athletics (may even still be) is truly part of the academic university. I believe MAF was created to begin breaking that structure. Why is this important? The state of NC has net zero budgeting. Any $$’s brought in, must be spent or you risk losing it. Profit is not a goal, Covering expenses. It is also ripe for waste.

I used to be heavily involved with a local Alumni chapter. The budget received from alumni office was little to nothing. We started charging nominal amounts for events ($5/$10) for purposes of raising funds for the next fiscal year to hold bigger events. When the fiscal year ended that $ was used elsewhere and not fully allocated back to the chapter the following year.

I share this as an example of the “use it or lose it” mindset embedded within the academic/university athletic world (not just an App State issue).

[Saint3333]

If a portion of athletic revenue would have been earmarked to enhance all students experience and subsidize the cost of attendance for all that would have solved a lot of not only athletic issues by more broadly higher education’s largest problem, inflation far above all other aspects of life.