So Much For That Excuse

[Bootsy]

I think that it’s important to put some context around those that didn’t see the field for injuries, not a good fit, discipline issues and daddy issues. Not everyone is a pure bust from a talent evaluation standpoint.

This is what started ECU on their downward spiral under McNeill. The kids he recruited had talent on the field. A fair number of them also had off-field talents society generally frowns upon: DWI, armed robbery and a variety of other petty hijinks. And then there were the classroom issues.

There's a warning in all of this for other programs. It's taken the Pirates a LONG time to stop the ship from sinking, and many would argue they haven't turned the ship around completely (puns intended).

[Pikapp79]

I think that it’s important to put some context around those that didn’t see the field for injuries, not a good fit, discipline issues and daddy issues. Not everyone is a pure bust from a talent evaluation standpoint.

This is what started ECU on their downward spiral under McNeill. The kids he recruited had talent on the field. A fair number of them also had off-field talents society generally frowns upon: DWI, armed robbery and a variety of other petty hijinks. And then there were the classroom issues.

There's a warning in all of this for other programs. It's taken the Pirates a LONG time to stop the ship from sinking, and many would argue they haven't turned the ship around completely (puns intended).

To be fair Pirates are not choir boys.

[T-Dog]

I have been told by the parent of high school kids who attended App State's prospect camps the last 3 years that they're nowhere near as good as others. They said the one in 2022 was by far the worst as Dale Jones didn't care and they felt the staff didn't care. In 2023 they said it was slightly better, but felt like the coaches were not enthusiastic about it. This parent told me players who beforehand wanted to play at App changed their mind after these camps. And this parent is an App State fan.

[AppStFan1]

I have been told by the parent of high school kids who attended App State's prospect camps the last 3 years that they're nowhere near as good as others. They said the one in 2022 was by far the worst as Dale Jones didn't care and they felt the staff didn't care. In 2023 they said it was slightly better, but felt like the coaches were not enthusiastic about it. This parent told me players who beforehand wanted to play at App changed their mind after these camps. And this parent is an App State fan.

Very interesting. When did the parent share this info?

[AppDub]

I have been told by the parent of high school kids who attended App State's prospect camps the last 3 years that they're nowhere near as good as others. They said the one in 2022 was by far the worst as Dale Jones didn't care and they felt the staff didn't care. In 2023 they said it was slightly better, but felt like the coaches were not enthusiastic about it. This parent told me players who beforehand wanted to play at App changed their mind after these camps. And this parent is an App State fan.

Well that's unfortunate.

[appst89]

I think that it’s important to put some context around those that didn’t see the field for injuries, not a good fit, discipline issues and daddy issues. Not everyone is a pure bust from a talent evaluation standpoint.

Yes we know that but it does not matter why. The reasons are just an excuse. The end result is what matters and whether they transfer and stand out elsewhere does not matter because the bottom line is what they did for us.

Everything affects everything. If you are going to base all conclusions on the W/L record then I understand why it looks like an excuse. Thankfully, those in charge are not as obtuse.

So, you think it is obtuse to base conclusions about the football team on wins and losses? And people in charge agree with that? The steady decline of the program makes perfect sense now.

[AppinVA]

I think that it’s important to put some context around those that didn’t see the field for injuries, not a good fit, discipline issues and daddy issues. Not everyone is a pure bust from a talent evaluation standpoint.

Yes we know that but it does not matter why. The reasons are just an excuse. The end result is what matters and whether they transfer and stand out elsewhere does not matter because the bottom line is what they did for us.

Everything affects everything. If you are going to base all conclusions on the W/L record then I understand why it looks like an excuse. Thankfully, those in charge are not as obtuse.

So, you think it is obtuse to base conclusions about the football team on wins and losses? And people in charge agree with that? The steady decline of the program makes perfect sense now.

All is well as long as students had fun.

[AppSt94]

I think that it’s important to put some context around those that didn’t see the field for injuries, not a good fit, discipline issues and daddy issues. Not everyone is a pure bust from a talent evaluation standpoint.

Yes we know that but it does not matter why. The reasons are just an excuse. The end result is what matters and whether they transfer and stand out elsewhere does not matter because the bottom line is what they did for us.

Everything affects everything. If you are going to base all conclusions on the W/L record then I understand why it looks like an excuse. Thankfully, those in charge are not as obtuse.

So, you think it is obtuse to base conclusions about the football team on wins and losses? And people in charge agree with that? The steady decline of the program makes perfect sense now.

If you don’t understand why the Wins/Losses occurred then yes. Like you, I understand what I see on the field during a game. The difference is that we don’t know what happens during the week. Basing a conclusion on 10% of the information, and I’m being generous with that %, is well, obtuse.

[appst89]

I think that it’s important to put some context around those that didn’t see the field for injuries, not a good fit, discipline issues and daddy issues. Not everyone is a pure bust from a talent evaluation standpoint.

Yes we know that but it does not matter why. The reasons are just an excuse. The end result is what matters and whether they transfer and stand out elsewhere does not matter because the bottom line is what they did for us.

Everything affects everything. If you are going to base all conclusions on the W/L record then I understand why it looks like an excuse. Thankfully, those in charge are not as obtuse.

So, you think it is obtuse to base conclusions about the football team on wins and losses? And people in charge agree with that? The steady decline of the program makes perfect sense now.

If you don’t understand why the Wins/Losses occurred then yes. Like you, I understand what I see on the field during a game. The difference is that we don’t know what happens during the week. Basing a conclusion on 10% of the information, and I’m being generous with that %, is well, obtuse.

I guess we will never agree. I simply cannot comprehend a world where performance doesn't matter.

[Saint3333]

One definition of obtuse is "slow to understand". Some people need to catch up.

[AppSt94]

One definition of obtuse is "slow to understand". Some people need to catch up.

I know that you are trying to buddy. Keep up the good work.

[311neers]

Yes we know that but it does not matter why. The reasons are just an excuse. The end result is what matters and whether they transfer and stand out elsewhere does not matter because the bottom line is what they did for us.

Everything affects everything. If you are going to base all conclusions on the W/L record then I understand why it looks like an excuse. Thankfully, those in charge are not as obtuse.

So, you think it is obtuse to base conclusions about the football team on wins and losses? And people in charge agree with that? The steady decline of the program makes perfect sense now.

If you don’t understand why the Wins/Losses occurred then yes. Like you, I understand what I see on the field during a game. The difference is that we don’t know what happens during the week. Basing a conclusion on 10% of the information, and I’m being generous with that %, is well, obtuse.

I guess we will never agree. I simply cannot comprehend a world where performance doesn't matter.

Games on Saturday are won and lost during the week of prep. We don’t need to see the prep to know it isn’t working. The results on Saturday tell us the prep isn’t good enough.

[RaleighApp27609]

One definition of obtuse is "slow to understand". Some people need to catch up.

I know that you are trying to buddy. Keep up the good work.

Serious question: how bad would things have to get with App football before you would be on board with coaching changes?

[AppSt94]

Yes we know that but it does not matter why. The reasons are just an excuse. The end result is what matters and whether they transfer and stand out elsewhere does not matter because the bottom line is what they did for us.

Everything affects everything. If you are going to base all conclusions on the W/L record then I understand why it looks like an excuse. Thankfully, those in charge are not as obtuse.

So, you think it is obtuse to base conclusions about the football team on wins and losses? And people in charge agree with that? The steady decline of the program makes perfect sense now.

If you don’t understand why the Wins/Losses occurred then yes. Like you, I understand what I see on the field during a game. The difference is that we don’t know what happens during the week. Basing a conclusion on 10% of the information, and I’m being generous with that %, is well, obtuse.

I guess we will never agree. I simply cannot comprehend a world where performance doesn't matter.

Serious question(s) based on your previous comment. If performance matters, and I’m not saying that it doesn’t; why is everyone that is demanding change because of two sub par seasons discounting the 10 win and two 9 win seasons?

I get the frustration, I do. I never said that I wasn’t frustrated too. But trying to look at the big picture of why it is currently what it is gets shouted down by those that just want their version of Utopia where everyone can be good as long as we are great.

I don’t know where this is going to end up. The BoT may decide to either support him or move on from him. But here is the concern that I have. Either decision is likely not going to be unanimous and that could cause some issues within the leadership of the school. I’m not saying it will, but it could.

[appst89]

Everything affects everything. If you are going to base all conclusions on the W/L record then I understand why it looks like an excuse. Thankfully, those in charge are not as obtuse.

So, you think it is obtuse to base conclusions about the football team on wins and losses? And people in charge agree with that? The steady decline of the program makes perfect sense now.

If you don’t understand why the Wins/Losses occurred then yes. Like you, I understand what I see on the field during a game. The difference is that we don’t know what happens during the week. Basing a conclusion on 10% of the information, and I’m being generous with that %, is well, obtuse.

I guess we will never agree. I simply cannot comprehend a world where performance doesn't matter.

Serious question(s) based on your previous comment. If performance matters, and I’m not saying that it doesn’t; why is everyone that is demanding change because of two sub par seasons discounting the 10 win and two 9 win seasons?

I get the frustration, I do. I never said that I wasn’t frustrated too. But trying to look at the big picture of why it is currently what it is gets shouted down by those that just want their version of Utopia where everyone can be good as long as we are great.

I don’t know where this is going to end up. The BoT may decide to either support him or move on from him. But here is the concern that I have. Either decision is likely not going to be unanimous and that could cause some issues within the leadership of the school. I’m not saying it will, but it could.

I can only speak for myself, and I don't discount those seasons, but the overall trend is, and has been, downward for the last few years. I can't tell my bosses that we had record sales five years ago to account for three straight years of declining sales.

I think the big picture IS wins and losses.

There are risks in making any decision. My biggest concern is that he gets another year and the apathy that is growing now gets a firm foothold.

[704App]

To me, in the 9 and 10 win seasons, there were still some glaring issues that I thought were first time head coach needing to learn some things. It happens. I was willing to give him the benefit of doubt.

The problem for a lot of people is those glaring issues are still issues. They haven't been fixed. Some of them are worse (the trenches and tackling specifically). I'm not going to call out the player by name, but he's struggled with angles and tackling since day 1 -- and he has the same issues in his final year. That, at least from my experience, is where the issue is.

I'm still not on the fire Clark bandwagon simply because the grass isn't always greener. But I am certainly close to hopping on. And some staffing changes have to happen.

[Stonewall]

Staffing changes? Two year contracts that deepen the financial commitment? Are competent , qualified assistant coaches going to sign on with a head coach on the edge?

[Saint3333]

One definition of obtuse is "slow to understand". Some people need to catch up.

I know that you are trying to buddy. Keep up the good work.

How could you understand, you don't even have 10% of information needed to comprehend. Don't be obtuse.

[704App]

Staffing changes? Two year contracts that deepen the financial commitment? Are competent , qualified assistant coaches going to sign on with a head coach on the edge?

The coordinators are in year 2 of their 2 year deals, right?

Personally, I think a change in DC and defensive philosophy will work wonders. The scheme we run from Woody requires too many reps with each other to master. That's simply not going to happen in this era of NIL and transfer portal.

[AppStFan1]

Everything affects everything. If you are going to base all conclusions on the W/L record then I understand why it looks like an excuse. Thankfully, those in charge are not as obtuse.

So, you think it is obtuse to base conclusions about the football team on wins and losses? And people in charge agree with that? The steady decline of the program makes perfect sense now.

If you don’t understand why the Wins/Losses occurred then yes. Like you, I understand what I see on the field during a game. The difference is that we don’t know what happens during the week. Basing a conclusion on 10% of the information, and I’m being generous with that %, is well, obtuse.

I guess we will never agree. I simply cannot comprehend a world where performance doesn't matter.

Serious question(s) based on your previous comment. If performance matters, and I’m not saying that it doesn’t; why is everyone that is demanding change because of two sub par seasons discounting the 10 win and two 9 win seasons?

I get the frustration, I do. I never said that I wasn’t frustrated too. But trying to look at the big picture of why it is currently what it is gets shouted down by those that just want their version of Utopia where everyone can be good as long as we are great.

I don’t know where this is going to end up. The BoT may decide to either support him or move on from him. But here is the concern that I have. Either decision is likely not going to be unanimous and that could cause some issues within the leadership of the school. I’m not saying it will, but it could.

Here are reasons that I think are making people feel that way.

1. It is always about what have you done for me lately. If you have national title in 2020 but have had losing seasons the last 4 years then most ADs would still make a change. Remember when Auburn won the title under Chizik in 2010? He went 8-5 and then 3-9. Auburn saw him win a title with someone else's players and as he owned more and more of the roster they went downhill. You can't just live off the past. This is a performance based business.

2. He is still making a lot of mistakes that only a rookie head coach would make. We are not seeing him progress as a coach.

3. He was asked what he needed to make improvements and got them but we have gotten worse.

4. Way too many people want a change and we need some new blood.