App State football in a playoff? [Black & Gold Podcast]

[MtnDevil95]

First and foremost, great podcast and excellent episode. You guys had some great discussion and DJ brought up some really valid points. We all know money is king, and when you step out of the media revenue driver and look at the annual budgets across the programs that point is driven home clear as a sunny day on the top of Grandfather Mountain. I still don't think Alabama's football operating budget being unattainable by App State means we give up on the hope of a CFP slot.

Maybe I am naïve and being too much of a fan boy, but I think CFP expansion to 8 teams and 1 guaranteed G5 slot among the 8 is realistic. I also think that App State has a legitimate shot at the G5 spot. If the CFP is 8 with 1 G5 AND the NY6 G5 slot remains, then App State has a real good shot at the NY6 slot (2nd G5). Right now, I'd rather play for a chance to play on New Year's weekend against a P5 then play 3 more games against other G5 programs, no matter if it is Navy, Houston, Boise State or whoever. If you're talking cutting expenses to make the operating budget go far, and playing a G5 Playoff will be the same $$ as a Bowl, and we all hear about bowls costing programs more money than they make, how does playing in 3 more costly games help? Especially compared to the shot at playing in a bigger more watched NY6?

All of that aside, clearly I agree with BigC regarding G5 playoffs, conference realignment among the G5 is something we can all agree on. The G5 needs to realign geographically. Let the P5 and their big travel anywhere fan bases worry about having at least one team in every major media market. The G5 has a hard enough time competing in the local media markets, lets focus on flooding the local markets with conference rivalries and enable fans to drive to see games in person. Get butts in seats and heads in beds. That is to say, fill stadiums for better game day experiences (which will help local TV coverage become national TV coverage, player recruiting, alumni donations, etc.) and fill hotel rooms (which will help local economies and grow attract better amenities for traveling fans, in turn attract more fans to travel).

I spent some time working for a rat. And the as the biggest player in the special events space, the company mantra for hosting any event was "how many heads in beds?" The G5 need to think in terms of butts in seats first and worry about eyes on screens later.

[JTApps1]

If a second playoff is started, it should take the form of the NIT b-ball tournament where all FBS (P5 and G5) are eligible which are not in the "big" playoff. Ideally, both of these would be 8 team brackets.

This is the only way I could be swayed. Otherwise, we fought to go FBS for nothing. In 15 years we'll be back where we started in 1-AA, just under a different moniker.

With or without a G5 playoff, in 15 years we'll still be a G5 program that will never get a shot at the CFP. The only thing linking App State and Alabama is the label "FBS" and it's shared with 126 other programs. Avoiding a G5 playoff because one doesn't want to lose that perceived equal "FBS" status with the P5 programs doesn't make sense considering the P5/G5 divide is real.

As we discuss in this episode, it seems like that best way to improve the G5 experience is realignment that focuses on regions vs. TV contracts and markets. I agreed with what Big C wisely pointed out: until G5 conferences makes sense, the G5 Playoff doesn't.

There is a real divide, but creating a separate champion really drives it home. It would also send a message of giving in. Personally I don't care if we can't play in the CFP (I do hope we make an Access Bowl one day) as there are a ton of P5 teams that will never make it either. I want to focus on getting better conferences put together, building great rivalries, and getting more name programs to come to Boone.

I want to respectfully ask you a couple of questions about what you said. I'm not being sarcastic, just want to clarify a couple of things.

There is a real divide, but creating a separate champion really drives it home. And once it's driven home, then what? People go from thinking we're on the level of SEC football to realizing we play in the Sun Belt? I'm having a hard time seeing what's so bad about the prospect of embracing that we're a great G5 program that wants to be at the top of our peers. The CFP-P5 aren't our peers and I don't care. I keep seeing attempts to compare this to FCS but besides a playoff, the comparison doesn't make sense to me.

It would also send a message of giving in. Giving into what? It seems you mean "giving in" as officially not longer trying to get into the CFP which, to be fair, was never tenable in the first place. Also, who would have the perception that we're giving in and does their perception ultimately it matter? Do potential recruits come to App State for a shot at CFP?

Personally I don't care if we can't play in the CFP (I do hope we make an Access Bowl one day) as there are a ton of P5 teams that will never make it either. I don't have a question but I completely agree with you on this point!

Sorry for the delay, but I wanted to listen to the latest show to hear everyone's take especially DJ since he has been involved in discussion that few participate in.

I know P5 schools are on another level with revenue, exposure, and fan support, but we benefit from being as closely aligned with them as possible. If we voluntarily pull away by having our own post-season we risk being cut out of the CFP money we currently receive. If so, do we know that a G5 playoff will cover that lost money much less generate more? The G5 conferences currently receive $85mil a year in total from the CFP. For the Sun Belt if every team meets the APR standard the conference will receive a minimum of $13,000,000 annually ($10mil conference payout plus $300K per team that meets APR). If a Sun Belt team makes the access bowl that number jumps to around $20,000,000. I'm not sure there is enough TV and sponsorship money available for a G5 playoff to cover that $85mil as we all know the CFP won't give up what it is due just because the G5 starts their own gig.

After finances comes fan perception. Outside of stadium size and revenue we can still make an argument that we are on the same level as many P5 teams on the field. I don't know anyone that would say we aren't an equal on the field to at least 1/3 of the P5 teams if not more. While we don't need to focus on what everyone thinks it is still critical in creating interest in our program. Now that our people and other fans are starting to view our program as a legit "Division 1" team we are getting much more coverage, better OOC games, and will continue to draw in App fans that may not have been as involved in the past. If the G5 moves to its own post-season the perception of G5 schools by the general football fan will immediately begin to change as we're basically saying we can't compete in that post-season so we'll create our own. That will matter when it comes to TV, and that takes us back to the question of will a playoff generate enough cash to make up what we will lose from the CFP? Even if it starts out well enough I seriously doubt it will stay that way long term. When I-AA first started it had pretty good coverage and the playoffs got a good deal of attention. Now its barely even talked about anymore. I personally don't want the G5 schools to open the door to that becoming a reality again.

I agree with BigC and others that we need to focus on fixing our conferences first and then work on getting better bowl tie-ins. The CFP is under contract to last for almost another decade so we know the current payouts won't get any worse. Use that time to fix our problems before worrying about the playoff. Who knows maybe the CFP will expand at that point an offer 1 slot to the G5? In the meantime I would rather play for a chance at the Access Bowl against a top 10 team than a second tier "national championship."

For now I want App to focus on growing our program, getting ranked, getting an Access Bowl, and making ourselves as desirable as possible for the realignment that we all know is coming.

[EastHallApp]

OK, finally finished listening as well. As I said earlier, I am fully on board with conference realignment, but I still don't know why that is necessarily linked with a G5 playoff. I did enjoy hearing the discussion toward the end about alumni demographics and budget priorities.

However, can't say I heard a case for starting a playoff that I found compelling.

[AppOrange]

Listening now, but I'm going to pause to give my bottom-line thought.

Let's assume a few things:

- Creating a G5 playoff wouldn't affect scheduling opportunities (which I'm not sure about).
- The playoff would be at least feasible financially.
- It's truly almost impossible for a G5 team to make a 4-team CFP (even though in reality we haven't seen a credible candidate yet).
- The CFP will never expand to a size that would make it easier for the G5 to be included (unlikely).
- And let's overlook the travel challenges of asking G5 fans to travel three times in December/early January with maybe only a week to plan each trip.

Here's my question: Which do you consider a bigger prize - beating another G5 for the championship of this newly recognized subdivision, or playing in a NY6 bowl game against a top 10 P5 opponent? Because ultimately, it's a 1:1 trade: Only one team can get the access spot now, and only one team could be G5 national champion in a playoff scenario. For my part, I'll take that NY6 bid every time.

The other seven teams in the playoff are all going to end their season with a loss. That's seven fan bases who will spend eight months being disappointed, rather than several of them being able to celebrate bowl wins.

To me, that's a lot of downsides with not much upside.

This!

G5 playoff = fcs playoffs. Fight for realignment, construct a strong conference, and when the playoffs expand, work hard to get a spot at the table. I see a G5 playoff as lacking vision and giving fans nothing new to get excited about. The playoffs will expand one day, and I think fighting for a spot is doable. I prefer a 1 in 1000 shot then no shot at all, dream big.

Ps - love the podcast, but man, I was frustrated for Big C . . . Every time he tried to counterpoint he was interrupted and spoken over, you have more patience then I my man.

[APPARJ]

There is a real divide, but creating a separate champion really drives it home. It would also send a message of giving in. Personally I don't care if we can't play in the CFP (I do hope we make an Access Bowl one day) as there are a ton of P5 teams that will never make it either. I want to focus on getting better conferences put together, building great rivalries, and getting more name programs to come to Boone.

I want to respectfully ask you a couple of questions about what you said. I'm not being sarcastic, just want to clarify a couple of things.

There is a real divide, but creating a separate champion really drives it home. And once it's driven home, then what? People go from thinking we're on the level of SEC football to realizing we play in the Sun Belt? I'm having a hard time seeing what's so bad about the prospect of embracing that we're a great G5 program that wants to be at the top of our peers. The CFP-P5 aren't our peers and I don't care. I keep seeing attempts to compare this to FCS but besides a playoff, the comparison doesn't make sense to me.

It would also send a message of giving in. Giving into what? It seems you mean "giving in" as officially not longer trying to get into the CFP which, to be fair, was never tenable in the first place. Also, who would have the perception that we're giving in and does their perception ultimately it matter? Do potential recruits come to App State for a shot at CFP?

Personally I don't care if we can't play in the CFP (I do hope we make an Access Bowl one day) as there are a ton of P5 teams that will never make it either. I don't have a question but I completely agree with you on this point!

Your last point solidifies our point of view. A separate G5 playoff will do away with the "Access to nowhere" Game for a G5. G5 schools will be relegated to their own tournament over time and pushed totally out of 1-A football. (See evolution of 1-AA)...

Even if it doesn't eliminate the "access" game, say you win the hypothetical G5 playoff, if you haven't beat the designated best G5 team because they are in the "Access" game, what have you got? Not much more than the current bowl situation, just more games.

I liked Saints points and the discussion of G5 bowl tie-ins being 1v1 2v2 etc. enough of the conf champ vs 6-6 team.

Genuine question, how are we "in" 1-A football right now that would be so different with a G5 playoff system? The hope against hope for NY6?

We are 1-A in that we are FBS. We are eligible for the "access" game as well as an at-large spot in the current 4-team bracket. (Albeit the stars would have to align in current landscape to get it). However, I have the firm belief, 4 is just a temporary solution (interesting trivia, the 1-AA playoffs started with a 4 team field). They will go to 8 at some point and possibly 12 down the road. I want App to be positioned to be in that conversation.

The G5 playoff thought ends any of those possibilities. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The P5 visiting Boone, gone. Sure, we will get those games, but they will be on the road just like when we wer FCS.

I'll ask the same question I asked before, why spend all the money and effort to go FBS, if you just throw it away to start the FCS/1-AA clock all over as if we were back in the late 70's?

To answer your question directly: We spent money and effort to get where we are because FBS is BETTER. We now play better teams at home and on the road. We have better and MORE talent on the roster. We wouldn't be throwing ANY of that with a G5PO. Why? Top 8 G5 > Top 8 FCS. G5 football as a whole is better, more competitive and well known (for the purposes of TV) compared to FCS. But you already know that.

Right now:

Odds of us playing in NY6 = .01%

Odds of us playing in CFP (4 or 8 teams)= .001%

Yes. The G5 playoff concept does eliminate those odds. It also means not being able to say we're "eligible" for NY6 and CFP but it's eligibility in name only. It's preserving an empty label.

I've yet to see a compelling reason about why P5's won't come to Boone or why they won't continue to play us. Did Miami really come to Boone because we were eligible for NY6 and CFP? And if the G5 Playoff becomes reality, a P5 like Tennessee would refuse to play us because NOW we're not contenders for NY6? That's not a serious point to use. Also, let's not pretend P5 road games are beneath us ("...just like we were FCS...") after one P5 home game. We'll have home and road P5 games regardless of what model of G5 football exists.

Sorry for the late reply. Busy week!

[APPARJ]

Listening now, but I'm going to pause to give my bottom-line thought.

Let's assume a few things:

- Creating a G5 playoff wouldn't affect scheduling opportunities (which I'm not sure about).
- The playoff would be at least feasible financially.
- It's truly almost impossible for a G5 team to make a 4-team CFP (even though in reality we haven't seen a credible candidate yet).
- The CFP will never expand to a size that would make it easier for the G5 to be included (unlikely).
- And let's overlook the travel challenges of asking G5 fans to travel three times in December/early January with maybe only a week to plan each trip.

Here's my question: Which do you consider a bigger prize - beating another G5 for the championship of this newly recognized subdivision, or playing in a NY6 bowl game against a top 10 P5 opponent? Because ultimately, it's a 1:1 trade: Only one team can get the access spot now, and only one team could be G5 national champion in a playoff scenario. For my part, I'll take that NY6 bid every time.

The other seven teams in the playoff are all going to end their season with a loss. That's seven fan bases who will spend eight months being disappointed, rather than several of them being able to celebrate bowl wins.

To me, that's a lot of downsides with not much upside.

That's actually not the scenario. The real question is: Over the next 30 years would you prefer to MAYBE have a chance to play in one NY6 games or be the undeniably best G5 program in the country 5 times?

[EastHallApp]

Odds of us playing in NY6 = .01%

One in 10,000. Completely disagree.

We've been on the fringe of the discussion already the past couple years, and we're an FBS newby in a league that's half made up of other FBS newbies.

Beyond that: If you don't believe we have a plausible chance at being the one G5 team that makes the NY6, why would you think we have much more chance of being the one G5 team that wins the "national championship"?

[APPARJ]

Odds of us playing in NY6 = .01%

One in 10,000. Completely disagree.

We've been on the fringe of the discussion already the past couple years, and we're an FBS newby in a league that's half made up of other FBS newbies.

Beyond that: If you don't believe we have a plausible chance at being the one G5 team that makes the NY6, why would you think we have much more chance of being the one G5 team that wins the "national championship"?

In 2017 it may be more than 1 in 10,000. A 12-0 Sun Belt team that beats a bad UGA team and Wake won't make NY6. We can talk about altering the odds when the conference realignment happens.

Does a 12-0 Sun Belt team make the G5PO?

[AppDawg]

I want to respectfully ask you a couple of questions about what you said. I'm not being sarcastic, just want to clarify a couple of things.

There is a real divide, but creating a separate champion really drives it home. And once it's driven home, then what? People go from thinking we're on the level of SEC football to realizing we play in the Sun Belt? I'm having a hard time seeing what's so bad about the prospect of embracing that we're a great G5 program that wants to be at the top of our peers. The CFP-P5 aren't our peers and I don't care. I keep seeing attempts to compare this to FCS but besides a playoff, the comparison doesn't make sense to me.

It would also send a message of giving in. Giving into what? It seems you mean "giving in" as officially not longer trying to get into the CFP which, to be fair, was never tenable in the first place. Also, who would have the perception that we're giving in and does their perception ultimately it matter? Do potential recruits come to App State for a shot at CFP?

Personally I don't care if we can't play in the CFP (I do hope we make an Access Bowl one day) as there are a ton of P5 teams that will never make it either. I don't have a question but I completely agree with you on this point!

Your last point solidifies our point of view. A separate G5 playoff will do away with the "Access to nowhere" Game for a G5. G5 schools will be relegated to their own tournament over time and pushed totally out of 1-A football. (See evolution of 1-AA)...

Even if it doesn't eliminate the "access" game, say you win the hypothetical G5 playoff, if you haven't beat the designated best G5 team because they are in the "Access" game, what have you got? Not much more than the current bowl situation, just more games.

I liked Saints points and the discussion of G5 bowl tie-ins being 1v1 2v2 etc. enough of the conf champ vs 6-6 team.

Genuine question, how are we "in" 1-A football right now that would be so different with a G5 playoff system? The hope against hope for NY6?

We are 1-A in that we are FBS. We are eligible for the "access" game as well as an at-large spot in the current 4-team bracket. (Albeit the stars would have to align in current landscape to get it). However, I have the firm belief, 4 is just a temporary solution (interesting trivia, the 1-AA playoffs started with a 4 team field). They will go to 8 at some point and possibly 12 down the road. I want App to be positioned to be in that conversation.

The G5 playoff thought ends any of those possibilities. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The P5 visiting Boone, gone. Sure, we will get those games, but they will be on the road just like when we wer FCS.

I'll ask the same question I asked before, why spend all the money and effort to go FBS, if you just throw it away to start the FCS/1-AA clock all over as if we were back in the late 70's?

To answer your question directly: We spent money and effort to get where we are because FBS is BETTER. We now play better teams at home and on the road. We have better and MORE talent on the roster. We wouldn't be throwing ANY of that with a G5PO. Why? Top 8 G5 > Top 8 FCS. G5 football as a whole is better, more competitive and well known (for the purposes of TV) compared to FCS. But you already know that.

Right now:

Odds of us playing in NY6 = .01%

Odds of us playing in CFP (4 or 8 teams)= .001%

Yes. The G5 playoff concept does eliminate those odds. It also means not being able to say we're "eligible" for NY6 and CFP but it's eligibility in name only. It's preserving an empty label.

I've yet to see a compelling reason about why P5's won't come to Boone or why they won't continue to play us. Did Miami really come to Boone because we were eligible for NY6 and CFP? And if the G5 Playoff becomes reality, a P5 like Tennessee would refuse to play us because NOW we're not contenders for NY6? That's not a serious point to use. Also, let's not pretend P5 road games are beneath us ("...just like we were FCS...") after one P5 home game. We'll have home and road P5 games regardless of what model of G5 football exists.

Sorry for the late reply. Busy week!

First, sorry to all for not trimming the quotes. On my phone and frankly it is a pain in the rear.

As far as a .01% chance of making NY6 game, I think you are severely underestimating the strength of our program. SS has built a strong foundation and I happen to believe we are much closer to being a legit contender for that spot in the near future. Heck, last year (2015) up until the stAte game we were openly being discussed on the short list and we are currently knocking on the top 25 door. In the 1st two years of FBS that is unprecedented. Also, the top G5 is already crowned each year via the NY6 game.

As far as P5's in Boone, we are all FBS. That is why Miami came and Wake is. This is also why the current FBS is better. If it didn't matter, then we would sign a home and home with JMU instead of having Savannah State come to Boone. But we don't... B/c you just don't travel to a lower division school. It matters.

The P5 and G5 is a "meaningless" designation at the moment concocted by ESPN to drive conversation and distinguish between the 10 FBS conferences... akin to community organizing (they are also the ones who planted this hypothetical G5 playoff concept). If, a G5 playoff is started, it will effectively create a new division by formally subdividing the current FBS. The current G5 will become for all intents and purposes the new 1-AA and the Current FCS will be the new D2.

Now, once that new G5 division is created, why would a P5 travel to a G5 stadium? They wouldn't because it is lower division. We would be the new cupcakes. Just like the NCAA conveniently dropped the division 1 identification for FCS football, the FBS identification will leave the G5 division. More importantly, why would they share any of the CFP $$$ with the G5 schools? Afterall, it would be at that point theirs and theirs alone.... the G5 will have then "willingly" been fooled again and created its own division and pot of $.

Take away the CFP $ from the G5 and all of our leverage over the P5 is gone. Currently, the CFP rewards strength of schedule. G5's provides that SOS boost over FCS and has effectively used that leverage to push single game payouts to astronomical amounts. We can do that because we know they need those games, but also because we know we got a chunk of $ coming from the CFP. The higher that single game price goes, certain P5's are opting for home and homes. If the CFP goes away, G5's are left with whatever the P5's will pay. We'll have to take it and like it, whatever amount that is as we will need the funding with limited revenue streams. That means, we lose leverage and the ability to drive game payments so high the P5 wants a home and home.

The 1-AA split occurred with a lot of lofty monetary promises from the NCAA and tv Networks. It failed miserably. I think those liking the thought of returning to a bracket and playoff system akin to FCS are blinded by the "thought" and not thinking about what that truly means and the real world cause and effects that will reverberate from that decision.

The fatal flaw is thinking we can simply replace bowls with a playoff, keep the current regular season landcape the same, still get CFP (P5$) and get just as much TV exposure & media rights $ that we currently do. Seems all too pie in the sky to me.

[AppDawg]

Odds of us playing in NY6 = .01%

One in 10,000. Completely disagree.

We've been on the fringe of the discussion already the past couple years, and we're an FBS newby in a league that's half made up of other FBS newbies.

Beyond that: If you don't believe we have a plausible chance at being the one G5 team that makes the NY6, why would you think we have much more chance of being the one G5 team that wins the "national championship"?

In 2017 it may be more than 1 in 10,000. A 12-0 Sun Belt team that beats a bad UGA team and Wake won't make NY6. We can talk about altering the odds when the conference realignment happens.

Does a 12-0 Sun Belt team make the G5PO?

Wow. Beating a bad UGA and Wake will not make NY6.... sure sounds a lot like what WMU did this year... and I bet that UGA and Wake won't be nearly as bad next year as Illinois and Northwestern were in '16.

[Saint3333]

Rather than discuss the probability of App making the NY6 bowl, which is better than 1 in 10,000 for next year alone.

Let's discuss the flaws with a G5 playoff.

1. MONEY - for it to work there must be revenue behind it. As pointed out there is a gap between the P5 and G5 budgets, that is driven by TV $$$. The disparity between viewers that would watch a G5 playoff and the P5 playoff is large, probably larger than the disparity between the budgets

2. More games at neutral sites? G5 fans don't bring a ton of fans to the bowls today, now split that fanbase because less than 50% of those can make two games. More fans aren't going to travel to see App play SDSU or W. Mich. is a bowl further away than we did for the Camellia Bowl.

It just doesn't work.

[JTApps1]

I want to respectfully ask you a couple of questions about what you said. I'm not being sarcastic, just want to clarify a couple of things.

There is a real divide, but creating a separate champion really drives it home. And once it's driven home, then what? People go from thinking we're on the level of SEC football to realizing we play in the Sun Belt? I'm having a hard time seeing what's so bad about the prospect of embracing that we're a great G5 program that wants to be at the top of our peers. The CFP-P5 aren't our peers and I don't care. I keep seeing attempts to compare this to FCS but besides a playoff, the comparison doesn't make sense to me.

It would also send a message of giving in. Giving into what? It seems you mean "giving in" as officially not longer trying to get into the CFP which, to be fair, was never tenable in the first place. Also, who would have the perception that we're giving in and does their perception ultimately it matter? Do potential recruits come to App State for a shot at CFP?

Personally I don't care if we can't play in the CFP (I do hope we make an Access Bowl one day) as there are a ton of P5 teams that will never make it either. I don't have a question but I completely agree with you on this point!

Your last point solidifies our point of view. A separate G5 playoff will do away with the "Access to nowhere" Game for a G5. G5 schools will be relegated to their own tournament over time and pushed totally out of 1-A football. (See evolution of 1-AA)...

Even if it doesn't eliminate the "access" game, say you win the hypothetical G5 playoff, if you haven't beat the designated best G5 team because they are in the "Access" game, what have you got? Not much more than the current bowl situation, just more games.

I liked Saints points and the discussion of G5 bowl tie-ins being 1v1 2v2 etc. enough of the conf champ vs 6-6 team.

Genuine question, how are we "in" 1-A football right now that would be so different with a G5 playoff system? The hope against hope for NY6?

We are 1-A in that we are FBS. We are eligible for the "access" game as well as an at-large spot in the current 4-team bracket. (Albeit the stars would have to align in current landscape to get it). However, I have the firm belief, 4 is just a temporary solution (interesting trivia, the 1-AA playoffs started with a 4 team field). They will go to 8 at some point and possibly 12 down the road. I want App to be positioned to be in that conversation.

The G5 playoff thought ends any of those possibilities. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The P5 visiting Boone, gone. Sure, we will get those games, but they will be on the road just like when we wer FCS.

I'll ask the same question I asked before, why spend all the money and effort to go FBS, if you just throw it away to start the FCS/1-AA clock all over as if we were back in the late 70's?

To answer your question directly: We spent money and effort to get where we are because FBS is BETTER. We now play better teams at home and on the road. We have better and MORE talent on the roster. We wouldn't be throwing ANY of that with a G5PO. Why? Top 8 G5 > Top 8 FCS. G5 football as a whole is better, more competitive and well known (for the purposes of TV) compared to FCS. But you already know that.

Right now:

Odds of us playing in NY6 = .01%

Odds of us playing in CFP (4 or 8 teams)= .001%

Yes. The G5 playoff concept does eliminate those odds. It also means not being able to say we're "eligible" for NY6 and CFP but it's eligibility in name only. It's preserving an empty label.

I've yet to see a compelling reason about why P5's won't come to Boone or why they won't continue to play us. Did Miami really come to Boone because we were eligible for NY6 and CFP? And if the G5 Playoff becomes reality, a P5 like Tennessee would refuse to play us because NOW we're not contenders for NY6? That's not a serious point to use. Also, let's not pretend P5 road games are beneath us ("...just like we were FCS...") after one P5 home game. We'll have home and road P5 games regardless of what model of G5 football exists.

Sorry for the late reply. Busy week!

We would certainly still get P5 road games, but hosting P5 teams would go away no doubt. Once there is a clearly defined separation with two different championship structures there is no way the P5 will let teams play on the road verses a lower level team. No different than us not playing at a FCS school. I know that is speculation at this point, but history shows that this is what happens when two levels begin to separate.

I agree that we would still be much better off than we were in FCS as that level was getting watered down, but this would be very similar to the original I-AA. We wouldn't have some of the leagues that are still in FCS, but who is to say the scholarship levels wouldn't change after this? The playoff could be the first step leading to other larger changes down the road. If so we're not far off the I-AA model from 1980.

As for odds of playing in the NY6; yes at the bare minimum we have a 1.6% chance, but in years that we win the SB we actually have a 20% chance of getting in. I suspect we will be in the hunt of the SB crown more years than not, and 2017 should give us a really good chance to be in the conversation if we can take of business OOC. That still beats playing for a championship to prove we are the 65th best team. Had WMU won they would have been no worse than #15 and possibly as high as #10 with the number of teams that lost above them.

[JTApps1]

Rather than discuss the probability of App making the NY6 bowl, which is better than 1 in 10,000 for next year alone.

Let's discuss the flaws with a G5 playoff.

1. MONEY - for it to work there must be revenue behind it. As pointed out there is a gap between the P5 and G5 budgets, that is driven by TV $$$. The disparity between viewers that would watch a G5 playoff and the P5 playoff is large, probably larger than the disparity between the budgets

2. More games at neutral sites? G5 fans don't bring a ton of fans to the bowls today, now split that fanbase because less than 50% of those can make two games. More fans aren't going to travel to see App play SDSU or W. Mich. is a bowl further away than we did for the Camellia Bowl.

It just doesn't work.

1) The G5 gets roughly $85 Million a year from the CFP alone and about $48 million combined in TV revenue. Is there any way possible that networks will continue to pay over $130 million a year to the G5 if this playoff (which would lead to a split) comes to be? I seriously doubt it as that $85 million would stay with the CFP.

2) We all saw how this worked out in FCS even with everything but the championship game being on campus. In the height of our run our attendance was below the season average in each round of the playoffs. If we were forced to play on the road for two games before reaching the G5 Championship I can guarantee we wouldn't have many fans traveling to first two games, or if they did they would be out of cash by the time the championship game was played. I know a lot of Clemson fans who have had to decide between attending the Semi-Final or hope they win so they can go to the NC the past two years. These spread out neutral site games aren't cheap trips for fans to make.

[EastHallApp]

Odds of us playing in NY6 = .01%

One in 10,000. Completely disagree.

We've been on the fringe of the discussion already the past couple years, and we're an FBS newby in a league that's half made up of other FBS newbies.

Beyond that: If you don't believe we have a plausible chance at being the one G5 team that makes the NY6, why would you think we have much more chance of being the one G5 team that wins the "national championship"?

In 2017 it may be more than 1 in 10,000. A 12-0 Sun Belt team that beats a bad UGA team and Wake won't make NY6. We can talk about altering the odds when the conference realignment happens.

Does a 12-0 Sun Belt team make the G5PO?

Disagree. First of all it's supposition to say UGA will be bad. Secondly, as others pointed out, WMU made the NY6 by beating 6-6 Nortwestern and 3-9 Illinois, and sweeping a MAC that was basically on par with the Sun Belt. So I'm really not sure what data you're basing these claims on.

On your second point - now you've lowered the bar from winning the G5 playoff to just making it. Of course it would be easier to make the G5 playoff than the NY6 - because it would be a far less prestigious and exclusive accomplishment.

Let's stick with at least closer to apples-to-apples: Making the NY6 versus winning a hypothetical G5 playoff. You've stated more than once that you feel the latter would be much more likely than the former. I'm still curious as to why you believe that?

[EastHallApp]

Separate point: We're debating whether you'd rather play in the NY6 or win the G5 playoff. Realistically, in either scenario, most years we'll do neither. In the current system we'll usually play in a non-NY6 bowl. In a G5 playoff, most years we'd either lose in the playoff or miss it altogether.

So that raises another question. Which do you find more appealing: playing 1-3 games, perhaps in Boone, perhaps on someone else's campus, then maybe if you advance at a neutral site; or playing one bowl game at a neutral site where you have 2-3 weeks to plan and budget for your travel?

That's a tougher call, but for me, I still prefer the bowl game.

[Appftw]

P5 wins matter, but if WMU (and to a lesser extent NDSU) has proven anything, it's that the quality of P5 wins don't matter. As long as you get a P5 scalp, you will be in the discussion.

[hapapp]

I'm with P.J. Fleck on this one:
Western Michigan coach P.J. Fleck slammed the idea of a separate playoff.
"I absolutely love the way the Group of Five and the Power Five coincide and mix," Fleck said at a Cotton Bowl news conference. "Just because one AD makes a statement like that doesn't mean that the whole conference feels that way, because I don't feel that way at all. One person speaking for the Group of Five or the Mid-American Conference is now how we feel whatsoever. I don't speak for everybody else, but I know us, [we] are not in favor of this Group of Five national championship. I think that's ridiculous."

http://www.cbssports.com/college-footba ... yoff-idea/

[t4pizza]

My guess is that this debate breaks down roughly along the lines of the FCS/FBS debate. I imagine that those in support of the G5 playoff also wanted to stay FCS, big fish little pond and all. I could be wrong but that is what it seems like to me. While I, along with everyone else, clearly recognize the significant financial disparities between the P5 and G5 and all the benefits that those finances provide, that hardly seems like a reason to further separate the FBS leagues and start a new playoff for G5 schools. The current system already rewards the best G5 school, and anybody who doesn't think that App can get to an access bowl bid (NY6) if we run the table next year is just deluding themselves for purposes of their argument. App is a name brand and football people in the media are aware of what we have accomplished in our transition to FBS. We already get more talk on national college radio shows than the vast majority of other G5 programs. All we have to do is give those media guys a reason to rank us, beat UGA and Wake, and they will. As has previously been stated, Western Michigan won perhaps the weakest G5 conference and beat 2 bad FBS teams, but they played in the Cotton Bowl. Anyone who doesn't think we can achieve the same thing is just wrong and probably pinning for the 'good ole days of the playoffs'. Realign the G5 in regional conferences and see how much that improves everyone's bottom line. That is what the G5 administrators should be discussing, not this silly idea of a playoff. Those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat it.

[appst89]

I do not like the idea of a G5 playoff. I hope it doesn't happen. Let me say that again before anyone attacks me for being anti-FBS. I do not like the idea of a G5 playoff and I hope it does not happen.

Logical conference realignment of the G-5 along sensible geographic lines is our key to future success, not a G-5 playoff.

I do find it interesting though, that one of the selling points of moving to FBS was to properly position ourselves with like institutions for when the inevitable split between P5 and G5 occurred. Now there seem to be people who praised that as a selling point having a lot of trouble accepting the inevitability of a split.

[APPARJ]

Odds of us playing in NY6 = .01%

One in 10,000. Completely disagree.

We've been on the fringe of the discussion already the past couple years, and we're an FBS newby in a league that's half made up of other FBS newbies.

Beyond that: If you don't believe we have a plausible chance at being the one G5 team that makes the NY6, why would you think we have much more chance of being the one G5 team that wins the "national championship"?

In 2017 it may be more than 1 in 10,000. A 12-0 Sun Belt team that beats a bad UGA team and Wake won't make NY6. We can talk about altering the odds when the conference realignment happens.

Does a 12-0 Sun Belt team make the G5PO?

Wow. Beating a bad UGA and Wake will not make NY6.... sure sounds a lot like what WMU did this year... and I bet that UGA and Wake won't be nearly as bad next year as Illinois and Northwestern were in '16.

I'll stand by my claim that a 12-0 App State team gets no NY6 based on our conference. We can split hairs about MAC vs. Sun Belt but it's my opinion all the same. If Georgia is awesome and we beat them then maybe 12-0 does. But it's really silly to talk about 12-0. The odds of that happening AND having other teams that might be in the run for NY6 performing poorly isn't realistic. Oh and not to mention the fact that we'd play a P5 time team where we'd lose. Again, this is all speculation because the odds of all of that happening together is too much IMO.