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Diversity at Appalachian State

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Appftw
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Re: Diversity at Appalachian State

Unread post by Appftw » Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:44 pm

Gonzo wrote: That means when you say "I bet Char-Meck sends more App students than some of these counties combined," you're wrong.
Oh really?

Let's take a look at the 3 southwestern-most counties (all highlighted in yellow on that graph you so generously provided). According to the county-by-county breakdown that you also provided: Cherokee county sent a whopping 23 students to App State. Clay county sent 19. And Macon County also sent 23. That comes to a total of 65 students from 3 counties. Mecklenburg county alone produced 1,647 and yet they're not highlighted in yellow on the inforgraphic.

So in conclusion not only am I right, but this furthers my point that the infographic is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to this discussion. You've epically misrepresented the data by using it in conjunction with the census data.

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Re: Diversity at Appalachian State

Unread post by Gonzo » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:03 pm

So 4 western, predominantly white North Carolina Counties (Cherokee, Clay, Macon, and Mecklenburg), sent 1,712 students to Appalachian. Falls right in line.

I didn't make those graphics. If I were being paid to I'd make a map darkening counties that sent the most students to Appalachian and compare it to the racial demographic county breakdown. I just thought we could extrapolate some of that data to glean reasons for such a low percentage of black people at App State and I succeeded, at the very least, in showing a geographic correlation. If you'd rather attribute those racial disparities to offensive stereotypes, go ahead man.

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Re: Diversity at Appalachian State

Unread post by Appftw » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:14 pm

Gonzo wrote:So 4 western, predominantly white North Carolina Counties (Cherokee, Clay, Macon, and Mecklenburg), sent 1,712 students to Appalachian. Falls right in line.
First of all, how can you classify Mecklenburg as Western North Carolina????
Gonzo wrote: I didn't make those graphics. If I were being paid to I'd make a map darkening counties that sent the most students to Appalachian and compare it to the racial demographic county breakdown.
Second, I'm not disputing the data, I'm disputing the way you presented those two graphs together. It was clearly wrong and a misrepresentation.

Now you're saying that I'm reinforcing negative stereotypes because you can't read a graph... this would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

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Re: Diversity at Appalachian State

Unread post by Gonzo » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:29 pm

Appftw wrote:First of all, how can you classify Mecklenburg as Western North Carolina????
Because it is from a political standpoint.

Image
Appftw wrote:Second, I'm not disputing the data, I'm disputing the way you presented those two graphs together. It was clearly wrong and a misrepresentation.
It was clearly labeled. I never tried to pass it off as a map of where most App students come from. Like I said, we can extrapolate the stats from that map to help us understand the racial disparity at App. The second link with I posted with a numeric breakdown of every county and how many students they sent to App can be directly tied to the NC racial/county map to substantiate the same point.
Appftw wrote:Now you're saying that I'm reinforcing negative stereotypes because you can't read a graph... this would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
I know I used to be bad about this myself, but you really need to be more respectful to people when you post on here. I wouldn't be where I am today if I couldn't read a graph.

Weren't so sad* The sentence in which you told me I can't read (a graph) requires the subjunctive. :ugeek:

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Re: Diversity at Appalachian State

Unread post by Appftw » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:32 pm

Gonzo wrote:Like I said, we can extrapolate the stats from that map to help us understand the racial disparity at App.
No, you can't. This is my entire point. As I showed you earlier, some of those numbers represented by a "majority" on that graph are so small that they are completely inconsequential. It's not that simple, man.

I think it comes down to the fact that students generally do not want to go somewhere that they'll feel conspicuously different from the general population.
Last edited by Appftw on Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Diversity at Appalachian State

Unread post by Gonzo » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:34 pm

Appftw wrote:
Gonzo wrote:Like I said, we can extrapolate the stats from that map to help us understand the racial disparity at App.
No, you can't. This is my entire point. As I showed you earlier, some of those numbers represented by the graph are so small that they are completely inconsequential. It's not that simple, man.

I think it comes down to the fact that students generally do not want to go somewhere that they'll feel conspicuously different from the general population.
If there is one thing I am sure about, is that there are likely more than one factor. You're probably correct in that assumption as well.

Agree to disagree about extrapolating the data from the first graph. The total number of App students in those "yellow" counties makes up a large percentage of the student body. In conjunction with the county list of App students the three are particularly persuasive.
Last edited by Gonzo on Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Diversity at Appalachian State

Unread post by Appftw » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:36 pm

And that is literally the only time you'll see Mecklenburg County lumped in with the western part of the state and you know it. Now you're twisting things even more to suit your agenda.

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Re: Diversity at Appalachian State

Unread post by Gonzo » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:42 pm

Appftw wrote:And that is literally the only time you'll see Mecklenburg County lumped in with the western part of the state and you know it. Now you're twisting things even more to suit your agenda.
I'm not twisting anything. The federal government has split NC into three portions. The folks in Raleigh lump the QC in with Western NC too.

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Re: Diversity at Appalachian State

Unread post by App1990 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:46 pm

Diversity, or the lack thereof is an issue for Appalachian. Here are a few issues that we may not know.

Recruiters have complained about the lack of diversity in the interviewee pool, and a few have actually stopped visiting campus to conduct interviews. They choose to spend their time going to other campuses that offer a wider range of applicants. Businesses have realized diversity among employees is better for them, and we are at a disadvantage on that front.

Relatedly, we are not doing our students any favors by putting them in a learning environment that lacks diversity of people and thought, and any resemblance to the real world. Much of the learning comes from hearing different perspectives and working with different types of people, as well as interacting with different people outside of class. We do what we can with international opportunities, but that is not the same. And this is an issue related to providing 'education' which is what universities do, which is not the same as 'training'. So it could be an issue for our students applying for jobs. If all else is equal, it would be better to hire someone that has experience with different people and different cultures.

As someone pointed out, the argument about more qualified students not getting in is misplaced. That is an ironic comment on a fan board when that logic would also argue most of the athletes that we love displaced 'more qualified' students. (my niece was rejected and then got in after the coach recruiting her called admissions)

But the fact is that being qualified is not a simple ranking of scores. That simplistic and a monkey can make that call. The goal is to identify the kids that will succeed and even thrive at Appalachian, and importantly, contribute to improving the academic environment for everyone on campus. GPAs and scores are used as predictors, but they are not the only predictors and they are inherently biased predictors. Increasingly, universities are dropping the standardized test scores and making the effort to be more thoughtful in identifying the right kids (e.g., taking into account the many factors unrelated to 'being qualified' that affect those simple metrics).

It's a real challenge. Yes, Appalachian is more diverse than the surrounding counties and other issues mentioned in this thread are real, and for a long time, those have been excuses to not do much (or enough). It would show a level of incompetence to ignore it. Fortunately, the chancellor appears to be taking more meaningful actions on this issue and they are seeing some improvement. I know some people want to polarize everything, but this is simply a weakness that is being corrected.
Last edited by App1990 on Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Diversity at Appalachian State

Unread post by bigdaddyg » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:50 pm

Bottom line is that there aren't a whole lot of African Americans living in the Western part of NC (as a percentage) for various reasons. There is no reason that I am aware of that would prevent an African American young man or woman from attending ASU if he or she applied and was accepted. The whole notion that African Americans don't like the cold or don't prefer hiking, skiing or other activities commonly associated with the mountains probably has some merit. There is a large percentage of Caucasian persons who don't like the cold or activities commonly associated with the mountains as well. I am white and wasn't crazy about the sideways wind that cut through me on harsh winter days, I only skied twice while in school (have taken my wife and boys twice in the past couple of years though). I live 3 and a half hours from Boone and I would gather that a great percentage of kids in this part of the state and points east may not have even heard of Appalachian State. An interesting thing to see would be, how many black students attend UNCW? And of those how many are not student athletes? Also, how many kids living in the western part of NC attend UNCW or even ECU?

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Re: Diversity at Appalachian State

Unread post by Rekdiver » Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:08 pm

I appreciate all the statistical data, graphs and such.... But we dont need to show current status but see what we need to do to attract more minority students to App. 500 black students out of 18k is tough and we need to better sell App to qualified minority students.

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Re: Diversity at Appalachian State

Unread post by HighlandsApp » Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:03 pm

Gonzo wrote:The reason App is so "white."

Image

Image

The racial stereotypes about "black people not liking cold" are overstated.

The unfortunate side effect of an effort to "diversify" is that better qualified applicants will be turned away based on their skin color.
Wow you are a racist douche bag.

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Re: Diversity at Appalachian State

Unread post by Gonzo » Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:15 pm

HighlandsApp wrote:
Gonzo wrote:The reason App is so "white."

Image

Image

The racial stereotypes about "black people not liking cold" are overstated.

The unfortunate side effect of an effort to "diversify" is that better qualified applicants will be turned away based on their skin color.
Wow you are a racist douche bag.
Huh?

You've misread something. I'm the one trying to debunk racist stereotypes.

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Re: Diversity at Appalachian State

Unread post by asu81ba » Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:32 pm

hapapp wrote:My guess is there are plenty of people who get in with lesser GPAs and SAT scores than some who don't. I'm going to assume some applicants are turned down who actually have better credentials than some of our athletes. Folks get in for a variety reasons beyond their straight academic background. The process has never been cut and dried.

It's been a couple of years since I spoke with the folks in admissions, but the assistant director told me in no uncertain terms that admission to ASU is/was based pretty much solely on grades and SAT scores. Above a certain number, you're in. Below that line, wait list or declined.

I'm sure that there is some wiggle room for special students (athletes?) but for the average student who wants to go to Appalachian, you need the grades and scores.

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Re: Diversity at Appalachian State

Unread post by HighlandsApp » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:16 pm

Gonzo wrote:
HighlandsApp wrote:
Gonzo wrote:The reason App is so "white."

Image

Image

The racial stereotypes about "black people not liking cold" are overstated.

The unfortunate side effect of an effort to "diversify" is that better qualified applicants will be turned away based on their skin color.
Wow you are a racist douche bag.
Huh?

You've misread something. I'm the one trying to debunk racist stereotypes.

My mistake. I interpreted your sentence that in order to increase diversity, that you believe it is necessary to reduce standards for those applicants. I read it that you believe non whites to be less intelligent and that standards will go down. This I do not believe need be the case. I am sorry.

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Re: Diversity at Appalachian State

Unread post by Gonzo » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:43 pm

No that's not what I believe.

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Re: Diversity at Appalachian State

Unread post by hapapp » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:05 am

asu81ba wrote:
hapapp wrote:My guess is there are plenty of people who get in with lesser GPAs and SAT scores than some who don't. I'm going to assume some applicants are turned down who actually have better credentials than some of our athletes. Folks get in for a variety reasons beyond their straight academic background. The process has never been cut and dried.

It's been a couple of years since I spoke with the folks in admissions, but the assistant director told me in no uncertain terms that admission to ASU is/was based pretty much solely on grades and SAT scores. Above a certain number, you're in. Below that line, wait list or declined.

I'm sure that there is some wiggle room for special students (athletes?) but for the average student who wants to go to Appalachian, you need the grades and scores.
I wasn't suggesting that our athletes didn't meet the standards for admission but my guess is that some students are denied who are "more qualified" in lieu of some athletes who are admitted. My point was that students are admitted based on several factors beyond just test scores and grades. Students can bring a multitude of talents to Appalachian beyond just their academic ones. It never has been a cut and dried process nor should it be. The Court has said that these other factors can be considered but can't be the only factor. Any state university has an obligation to all of its constituents.

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Re: Diversity at Appalachian State

Unread post by Boone Goon » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:02 am

For the love of God...can you guys take this outside, so the rest of us can talk about Mountaineer sports??

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Re: Diversity at Appalachian State

Unread post by App1990 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:36 am

There are non-sports threads and folders. You do not have to read them.

For those interested, of course GPA and SAT scores matter, in particular for setting minimum standards, but for who gets accepted and rejected, other things definitely matter as well. Class rank and the rigor of secondary courses are treated similar to GPA and SAT. Indicators of character, such as extracurricular activities, volunteer work, etc. are considered. Being a first generation college student and having relations to an alum helps as well, as does diversity issues (more than just racial). And being an athlete certainly helps.

Over time these 'other' things are becoming more important because people realize the flaws in using simple metrics. GPAs still holds weight, but SAT is fading. To give an idea, over 200 universities have dropped requiring standardize tests, including Wake Forest, Univ of Arizona, Arizona St, New York Univ, Virginia Commonwealth, Univ of Miss, Radford Univ, Texas A&M, American Univ, George Washington, etc.

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Re: Diversity at Appalachian State

Unread post by App91 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:10 am

Gonzo wrote:So 4 western, predominantly white North Carolina Counties (Cherokee, Clay, Macon, and Mecklenburg), sent 1,712 students to Appalachian. Falls right in line.

I didn't make those graphics. If I were being paid to I'd make a map darkening counties that sent the most students to Appalachian and compare it to the racial demographic county breakdown. I just thought we could extrapolate some of that data to glean reasons for such a low percentage of black people at App State and I succeeded, at the very least, in showing a geographic correlation. If you'd rather attribute those racial disparities to offensive stereotypes, go ahead man.
Um, do you even do research or just say what you think with then has to be true?
http://www.thecharlottepost.com/index.p ... tyminority

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