Unretired?

[appst89]

Did weather make the PSI even lower than the requested level? More than likely. But that does not debunk the theory that Brady requested the balls to be deflated as well. He did and got caught. That is the issue at hand.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I don't care. But the data collected over a long period of time says that the measurements they took in that stadium on that day were not out of the expected range for those weather conditions. There isn't one single scientist who has looked at the data who has suggested otherwise. That is, and has always been the issue for me.

[AppStateNews]

Did weather make the PSI even lower than the requested level? More than likely. But that does not debunk the theory that Brady requested the balls to be deflated as well. He did and got caught. That is the issue at hand.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I don't care. But the data collected over a long period of time says that the measurements they took in that stadium on that day were not out of the expected range for those weather conditions. There isn't one single scientist who has looked at the data who has suggested otherwise. That is, and has always been the issue for me.

So let's take a step back here. All balls are inspected in pre-game, must stay in view of the officials, not altered in any way.

You don't see an issue with altering the balls AFTER the inspection?

[AtlAppMan]

Did weather make the PSI even lower than the requested level? More than likely. But that does not debunk the theory that Brady requested the balls to be deflated as well. He did and got caught. That is the issue at hand.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I don't care. But the data collected over a long period of time says that the measurements they took in that stadium on that day were not out of the expected range for those weather conditions. There isn't one single scientist who has looked at the data who has suggested otherwise. That is, and has always been the issue for me.

So let's take a step back here. All balls are inspected in pre-game, must stay in view of the officials, not altered in any way.

You don't see an issue with altering the balls AFTER the inspection?

BTW, How many points is it worth to have a ball in play that has 2 lbs lower PSI than your opponent, all other things equal?

[AppStateNews]

Did weather make the PSI even lower than the requested level? More than likely. But that does not debunk the theory that Brady requested the balls to be deflated as well. He did and got caught. That is the issue at hand.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I don't care. But the data collected over a long period of time says that the measurements they took in that stadium on that day were not out of the expected range for those weather conditions. There isn't one single scientist who has looked at the data who has suggested otherwise. That is, and has always been the issue for me.

So let's take a step back here. All balls are inspected in pre-game, must stay in view of the officials, not altered in any way.

You don't see an issue with altering the balls AFTER the inspection?

BTW, How many points is it worth to have a ball in play that has 2 lbs lower PSI than your opponent, all other things equal?

That's not the point. The fact of the matter is Brady requested balls to be deflated lower than the pre-game inspection levels and it happened. That, by definition, is cheating.

Did it have an impact on the outcome of the game? Probably not. But, if it didn't benefit Brady and the Patriots at all, why request it? And even more so, if it doesn't have a benefit, why is it even a rule to begin with?

Again, if it was a one time thing, then cool. Benefit of doubt and someone just messed up. But, that entire organization (under Bellicheat, at least) have been caught multiple times cheating so there will be added scrutiny when caught again.

[appst89]

Did weather make the PSI even lower than the requested level? More than likely. But that does not debunk the theory that Brady requested the balls to be deflated as well. He did and got caught. That is the issue at hand.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I don't care. But the data collected over a long period of time says that the measurements they took in that stadium on that day were not out of the expected range for those weather conditions. There isn't one single scientist who has looked at the data who has suggested otherwise. That is, and has always been the issue for me.

So let's take a step back here. All balls are inspected in pre-game, must stay in view of the officials, not altered in any way.

You don't see an issue with altering the balls AFTER the inspection?

Where did I say, or even imply any of that? Please don't put words in my mouth.

The balls were not gauged pre-game.

And there is no scientist anywhere who has looked at the data who says it is out of the expected range for those weather conditions.

[AppStateNews]

Did weather make the PSI even lower than the requested level? More than likely. But that does not debunk the theory that Brady requested the balls to be deflated as well. He did and got caught. That is the issue at hand.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I don't care. But the data collected over a long period of time says that the measurements they took in that stadium on that day were not out of the expected range for those weather conditions. There isn't one single scientist who has looked at the data who has suggested otherwise. That is, and has always been the issue for me.

So let's take a step back here. All balls are inspected in pre-game, must stay in view of the officials, not altered in any way.

You don't see an issue with altering the balls AFTER the inspection?

Where did I say, or even imply any of that? Please don't put words in my mouth.

The balls were not gauged pre-game.

And there is no scientist anywhere who has looked at the data who says it is out of the expected range for those weather conditions.

Every ball by every team is inspected, gauged, and marked pre-game. They have to be. They were inspected and gauged pre-game. And altered after inspection at Brady's request. That is where the issue is.

Nothing more, nothing less. Sure, weather played a role in lowering even more. But, the balls were altered after pre-game gauge readings.

Not trying to put words in your mouth. You said there was no evidence of cheating. If balls are altered illegally after inspection, that is cheating. Does that mean there weren't other factors that also played in to lowering the PSI (i.e. weather?) Sure doesn't.

And facts and evidence prove the balls were altered after the inspection.

[appst89]

Did weather make the PSI even lower than the requested level? More than likely. But that does not debunk the theory that Brady requested the balls to be deflated as well. He did and got caught. That is the issue at hand.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I don't care. But the data collected over a long period of time says that the measurements they took in that stadium on that day were not out of the expected range for those weather conditions. There isn't one single scientist who has looked at the data who has suggested otherwise. That is, and has always been the issue for me.

So let's take a step back here. All balls are inspected in pre-game, must stay in view of the officials, not altered in any way.

You don't see an issue with altering the balls AFTER the inspection?

Where did I say, or even imply any of that? Please don't put words in my mouth.

The balls were not gauged pre-game.

And there is no scientist anywhere who has looked at the data who says it is out of the expected range for those weather conditions.

Every ball by every team is inspected, gauged, and marked pre-game. They have to be. They were inspected and gauged pre-game. And altered after inspection at Brady's request. That is where the issue is.

Nothing more, nothing less. Sure, weather played a role in lowering even more. But, the balls were altered after pre-game gauge readings.

Not trying to put words in your mouth. You said there was no evidence of cheating. If balls are altered illegally after inspection, that is cheating. Does that mean there weren't other factors that played in to lowering the PSI (i.e. weather?) Sure doesn't.

And facts and evidence prove the balls were altered after the inspection.

Here is a quote from an article that it took me two seconds to find," According to NFL Senior Vice President of Officiating Dean Blandino, referees do not log the pressure of the balls before the game, or check during the game, and did not do so in this case." They say they check them pregame, but there is no log. Since the NFL is the organization responsible for peddling the false story, I would doubt whether they actually did gauge them. Thus, there can be no way to know if they were altered. And the data collected is not outside of the expected range for those weather conditions.

There are no facts and no hard evidence that prove anything. There is circumstantial evidence. It's okay to believe that he cheated; a lot of people do, and I think he probably has. Just don't continue to pretend that there is supporting scientific evidence for that AFC championship game because it simply does not exist.

[AppStateNews]

And here are a couple quotes from articles that took me two seconds to find. Oh, and I played in the NFL so I know how the process works. In fact, part of my job as being on practice squad was helping the equipment staff take the balls to the officials at home games.

"All footballs will be inspected by NFL officials, who then will hand them off to a kicking ball coordinator, who will hold on to the footballs until 10 minutes before kickoff. Both teams must supply 24 footballs to the officials locker room two hours and 15 minutes before the game."

"The officials, they’ll put their initials on the ball, or an asterisk, or a star, whatever. They put something on there that only they know about so they can identify the approved balls."

"NFL officiating chief Dean Blandino says the inspection of the footballs by referee Walt Anderson before the AFC championship game was handled properly.... My major concern is did we follow proper protocol?” Blandino said. “Everything was properly tested and marked before the game. Walt gauged the footballs himself; it is something he has done throughout his career."

Just because they don't log it doesn't mean they don't check, gauge, approve, and mark them. If the balls are approved, they move along the process with the officials mark on it (asterisk, initials, etc). Every single ball is checked, gauged, and approved by the officials.

Now you're moving the goal posts to a conspiracy theory. I do agree its all circumstantial evidence though. And, again, if this was the first time an allegation happened to that organization or player, it's taken with a grain of salt. However, the lack of ethics that have followed the organization (and less so, the player) make it nearly impossible to bypass.

Sure, science says the weather could have made the balls at the pressure they were. I am not disagreeing there. What I am disagreeing wholehearedly about the lower PSI was due 100% to weather.

[appst89]

And here are a couple quotes from articles that took me two seconds to find. Oh, and I played in the NFL so I know how the process works. In fact, part of my job as being on practice squad was helping the equipment staff take the balls to the officials at home games.

"All footballs will be inspected by NFL officials, who then will hand them off to a kicking ball coordinator, who will hold on to the footballs until 10 minutes before kickoff. Both teams must supply 24 footballs to the officials locker room two hours and 15 minutes before the game."

"The officials, they’ll put their initials on the ball, or an asterisk, or a star, whatever. They put something on there that only they know about so they can identify the approved balls."

"NFL officiating chief Dean Blandino says the inspection of the footballs by referee Walt Anderson before the AFC championship game was handled properly.... My major concern is did we follow proper protocol?” Blandino said. “Everything was properly tested and marked before the game. Walt gauged the footballs himself; it is something he has done throughout his career."

Just because they don't log it doesn't mean they don't check, gauge, approve, and mark them. If the balls are approved, they move along the process with the officials mark on it (asterisk, initials, etc). Every single ball is checked, gauged, and approved by the officials.

Now you're moving the goal posts to a conspiracy theory. I do agree its all circumstantial evidence though. And, again, if this was the first time an allegation happened to that organization or player, it's taken with a grain of salt. However, the lack of ethics that have followed the organization (and less so, the player) make it nearly impossible to bypass.

Sure, science says the weather could have made the balls at the pressure they were. I am not disagreeing there. What I am disagreeing wholehearedly about the lower PSI was due 100% to weather.

Putting words in my mouth again. All I said is they can't prove scientifically that it was not 100% because of the weather on that day and a year's worth of data collection said exactly the same thing. The NFL already showed that it was willing to lie and leak inaccurate information about the event, so it's not a stretch to believe they would lie about whether they actually gauged the balls. Without a log there is no way to ever know.

My only point from the beginning is that there is nothing but circumstantial evidence to support this accusation. The scientific data does not support it. That's it.

[AppStateNews]

And here are a couple quotes from articles that took me two seconds to find. Oh, and I played in the NFL so I know how the process works. In fact, part of my job as being on practice squad was helping the equipment staff take the balls to the officials at home games.

"All footballs will be inspected by NFL officials, who then will hand them off to a kicking ball coordinator, who will hold on to the footballs until 10 minutes before kickoff. Both teams must supply 24 footballs to the officials locker room two hours and 15 minutes before the game."

"The officials, they’ll put their initials on the ball, or an asterisk, or a star, whatever. They put something on there that only they know about so they can identify the approved balls."

"NFL officiating chief Dean Blandino says the inspection of the footballs by referee Walt Anderson before the AFC championship game was handled properly.... My major concern is did we follow proper protocol?” Blandino said. “Everything was properly tested and marked before the game. Walt gauged the footballs himself; it is something he has done throughout his career."

Just because they don't log it doesn't mean they don't check, gauge, approve, and mark them. If the balls are approved, they move along the process with the officials mark on it (asterisk, initials, etc). Every single ball is checked, gauged, and approved by the officials.

Now you're moving the goal posts to a conspiracy theory. I do agree its all circumstantial evidence though. And, again, if this was the first time an allegation happened to that organization or player, it's taken with a grain of salt. However, the lack of ethics that have followed the organization (and less so, the player) make it nearly impossible to bypass.

Sure, science says the weather could have made the balls at the pressure they were. I am not disagreeing there. What I am disagreeing wholehearedly about the lower PSI was due 100% to weather.

Putting words in my mouth again. All I said is they can't prove scientifically that it was not 100% because of the weather on that day and a year's worth of data collection said exactly the same thing. The NFL already showed that it was willing to lie and leak inaccurate information about the event, so it's not a stretch to believe they would lie about whether they actually gauged the balls. Without a log there is no way to ever know.

My only point from the beginning is that there is nothing but circumstantial evidence to support this accusation. The scientific data does not support it. That's it.

Actually, your initial point was very clear that nobody deflated the balls (look at your initial post -- not putting words in your mouth). Now, you're saying it might have been altered but it also could be the weather based on scientists. I have agreed time and time again that weather did play a part; just not the whole part.

And now it's that the NFL is filled with conspiracy because their process that's been used for years doesn't include logging the pressure readings after you said they don't gauge the balls and proven they do. You are smart enough to understand there isn't a way to cover every possible scenario with policies and procedures. When this was implemented (can't find when it was implemented, but do know it was prior to the AFC championship game), needing to defend against a conspiracy theory and logging the pressures wasn't at the forefront. Trusting the officials are doing their jobs and inspecting, gauging, and marking the balls was. It's just common knowledge (within the league) if the balls are back to the team, they passed inspection and a log isn't required. The same thing happens in high school (at least where I played; don't know if it happens everywhere) and college ball.

You think because the NFL has already showed it is willing to lie its not a stretch to believe they would lie about gauging the balls (again, something that has happened for years). That's fair to being a skeptic about it with your beliefs in how the organization is ran.

But, you do think it's a stretch to use circumstantial evidence against a team and player that has been proven to cheat/bend the rules in the past? (This is a legitimate question -- not trying to put words in your mouth).

[appst89]

And here are a couple quotes from articles that took me two seconds to find. Oh, and I played in the NFL so I know how the process works. In fact, part of my job as being on practice squad was helping the equipment staff take the balls to the officials at home games.

"All footballs will be inspected by NFL officials, who then will hand them off to a kicking ball coordinator, who will hold on to the footballs until 10 minutes before kickoff. Both teams must supply 24 footballs to the officials locker room two hours and 15 minutes before the game."

"The officials, they’ll put their initials on the ball, or an asterisk, or a star, whatever. They put something on there that only they know about so they can identify the approved balls."

"NFL officiating chief Dean Blandino says the inspection of the footballs by referee Walt Anderson before the AFC championship game was handled properly.... My major concern is did we follow proper protocol?” Blandino said. “Everything was properly tested and marked before the game. Walt gauged the footballs himself; it is something he has done throughout his career."

Just because they don't log it doesn't mean they don't check, gauge, approve, and mark them. If the balls are approved, they move along the process with the officials mark on it (asterisk, initials, etc). Every single ball is checked, gauged, and approved by the officials.

Now you're moving the goal posts to a conspiracy theory. I do agree its all circumstantial evidence though. And, again, if this was the first time an allegation happened to that organization or player, it's taken with a grain of salt. However, the lack of ethics that have followed the organization (and less so, the player) make it nearly impossible to bypass.

Sure, science says the weather could have made the balls at the pressure they were. I am not disagreeing there. What I am disagreeing wholehearedly about the lower PSI was due 100% to weather.

Putting words in my mouth again. All I said is they can't prove scientifically that it was not 100% because of the weather on that day and a year's worth of data collection said exactly the same thing. The NFL already showed that it was willing to lie and leak inaccurate information about the event, so it's not a stretch to believe they would lie about whether they actually gauged the balls. Without a log there is no way to ever know.

My only point from the beginning is that there is nothing but circumstantial evidence to support this accusation. The scientific data does not support it. That's it.

Actually, your initial point was very clear that nobody deflated the balls (look at your initial post -- not putting words in your mouth). Now, you're saying it might have been altered but it also could be the weather based on scientists. I have agreed time and time again that weather did play a part; just not the whole part.

And now it's that the NFL is filled with conspiracy because their process that's been used for years doesn't include logging the pressure readings after you said they don't gauge the balls and proven they do. You are smart enough to understand there isn't a way to cover every possible scenario with policies and procedures. When this was implemented (can't find when it was implemented, but do know it was prior to the AFC championship game), needing to defend against a conspiracy theory and logging the pressures wasn't at the forefront. Trusting the officials are doing their jobs and inspecting, gauging, and marking the balls was. It's just common knowledge if the balls are back to the team, they passed inspection and a log isn't required.

You think because the NFL has already showed it is willing to lie its not a stretch to believe they would lie about gauging the balls (again, something that has happened for years). That's fair to being a skeptic about it with your beliefs in how the organization is ran.

But, you do think it's a stretch to use circumstantial evidence against a team and player that has been proven to cheat/bend the rules in the past? (This is a legitimate question -- not trying to put words in your mouth).

I said NOBODY deflated the balls, not NOTHING deflated the balls. At no point did I ever imply that the balls were not low, only that it cannot be proven that they were tampered with. The data collected and analyzed by multiple scientists, and deleted by the NFL, backs that up.

You will need to go back and show me exactly where I said that they didn't gauge the balls. If I did, I apologize because I misspoke. But I believe I said I would be skeptical, not that they didn't do it. I said they don't log the measurements, which they don't. I work in an environment governed by policies and procedures and if they aren't followed people die. Even though there are clearly defined policies and procedures, everything that happens is logged, and if it isn't logged then it didn't happen regardless of what anyone where I work says. They've already shown they're willing to lie about the incident, so anyplace where there could be a check, like a log book, and one doesn't exist, then that is a place where it would be easy for them to lie again.

I think it's fine to use circumstantial evidence. Court cases have been won on circumstantial evidence. I don't think it's fine to pretend that circumstantial evidence makes an ironclad case.

[AppStateNews]

And here are a couple quotes from articles that took me two seconds to find. Oh, and I played in the NFL so I know how the process works. In fact, part of my job as being on practice squad was helping the equipment staff take the balls to the officials at home games.

"All footballs will be inspected by NFL officials, who then will hand them off to a kicking ball coordinator, who will hold on to the footballs until 10 minutes before kickoff. Both teams must supply 24 footballs to the officials locker room two hours and 15 minutes before the game."

"The officials, they’ll put their initials on the ball, or an asterisk, or a star, whatever. They put something on there that only they know about so they can identify the approved balls."

"NFL officiating chief Dean Blandino says the inspection of the footballs by referee Walt Anderson before the AFC championship game was handled properly.... My major concern is did we follow proper protocol?” Blandino said. “Everything was properly tested and marked before the game. Walt gauged the footballs himself; it is something he has done throughout his career."

Just because they don't log it doesn't mean they don't check, gauge, approve, and mark them. If the balls are approved, they move along the process with the officials mark on it (asterisk, initials, etc). Every single ball is checked, gauged, and approved by the officials.

Now you're moving the goal posts to a conspiracy theory. I do agree its all circumstantial evidence though. And, again, if this was the first time an allegation happened to that organization or player, it's taken with a grain of salt. However, the lack of ethics that have followed the organization (and less so, the player) make it nearly impossible to bypass.

Sure, science says the weather could have made the balls at the pressure they were. I am not disagreeing there. What I am disagreeing wholehearedly about the lower PSI was due 100% to weather.

Putting words in my mouth again. All I said is they can't prove scientifically that it was not 100% because of the weather on that day and a year's worth of data collection said exactly the same thing. The NFL already showed that it was willing to lie and leak inaccurate information about the event, so it's not a stretch to believe they would lie about whether they actually gauged the balls. Without a log there is no way to ever know.

My only point from the beginning is that there is nothing but circumstantial evidence to support this accusation. The scientific data does not support it. That's it.

Actually, your initial point was very clear that nobody deflated the balls (look at your initial post -- not putting words in your mouth). Now, you're saying it might have been altered but it also could be the weather based on scientists. I have agreed time and time again that weather did play a part; just not the whole part.

And now it's that the NFL is filled with conspiracy because their process that's been used for years doesn't include logging the pressure readings after you said they don't gauge the balls and proven they do. You are smart enough to understand there isn't a way to cover every possible scenario with policies and procedures. When this was implemented (can't find when it was implemented, but do know it was prior to the AFC championship game), needing to defend against a conspiracy theory and logging the pressures wasn't at the forefront. Trusting the officials are doing their jobs and inspecting, gauging, and marking the balls was. It's just common knowledge if the balls are back to the team, they passed inspection and a log isn't required.

You think because the NFL has already showed it is willing to lie its not a stretch to believe they would lie about gauging the balls (again, something that has happened for years). That's fair to being a skeptic about it with your beliefs in how the organization is ran.

But, you do think it's a stretch to use circumstantial evidence against a team and player that has been proven to cheat/bend the rules in the past? (This is a legitimate question -- not trying to put words in your mouth).

I said NOBODY deflated the balls, not NOTHING deflated the balls. At no point did I ever imply that the balls were not low, only that it cannot be proven that they were tampered with. The data collected and analyzed by multiple scientists, and deleted by the NFL, backs that up.

You will need to go back and show me exactly where I said that they didn't gauge the balls. If I did, I apologize because I misspoke. But I believe I said I would be skeptical, not that they didn't do it. I said they don't log the measurements, which they don't. I work in an environment governed by policies and procedures and if they aren't followed people die. Even though there are clearly defined policies and procedures, everything that happens is logged, and if it isn't logged then it didn't happen regardless of what anyone where I work says. They've already shown they're willing to lie about the incident, so anyplace where there could be a check, like a log book, and one doesn't exist, then that is a place where it would be easy for them to lie again.

I think it's fine to use circumstantial evidence. Court cases have been won on circumstantial evidence. I don't think it's fine to pretend that circumstantial evidence makes an ironclad case.

You very clearly did say they didn't gauge the palls pre-game.

The balls were not gauged pre-game.

Let's flip the script here -- the data analyzed by multiple scientists, and deleted by the NFL only backs up that weather COULD be the culprit. It doesn't prove they weren't tampered with. It simply proves the weather COULD have been the reason -- not the definitive reason. So, no, the science doesn't prove NOBODY deflated the balls.

Sure, circumstantial evidence does not make it an ironclad case. Likewise, the science stating the PSI of the balls COULD have been due to the weather is not an ironclad case. In my opinion, both happened.

It just doesn't make sense, if it was 100% weather, how only one team had to inflate balls (11 of 12) to start the second half and the other did not have to inflate any. As far as I know, both teams had to endure the same weather. Also, it doesn't make sense they would even check at half time if there wasn't some kind of reason to check (first time ever) if it were 100% weather related. The officials knew something was off to even initiate the check. This was the first time ever balls were checked at half time.

Do I think weather played a role? Yes, science says so. Do I think that was the only role? Absolutely not. Circumstantial evidence and common sense (i.e. only one team needing to inflate balls after the first ever check at half time) say otherwise.

[appst89]

Apologies, I meant to say they weren’t logged not that they weren’t gauged. Without a log, there is no way to know for certain what those readings were.

The ball argument would be more compelling had they tested all of the balls. They did 12 for the Patriots and only 4 for the Colts. I read that all four of the Colts balls were under the acceptable level on one of the gauges. That alone is enough to make me question the whole process.

Do I think the balls could have been tampered with? Anything is possible, but there is a mountain of scientific evidence indicating it is less likely that they were.

[AppStateNews]

Apologies, I meant to say they weren’t logged not that they weren’t gauged. Without a log, there is no way to know for certain what those readings were.

The ball argument would be more compelling had they tested all of the balls. They did 12 for the Patriots and only 4 for the Colts. I read that all four of the Colts balls were under the acceptable level on one of the gauges. That alone is enough to make me question the whole process.

Do I think the balls could have been tampered with? Anything is possible, but there is a mountain of scientific evidence indicating it is less likely that they were.

While true we don't know what the pre-game ratings were, we do know they were at the approved levels or they wouldn't have been marked and in the game.

Only 4 of the Colts were tested because those 4 passed the first gauge. 3 of the 4 only failed the second gauge, but only passing one gauge is required to be approved. The failures were between .01 and .45 below on the second gauge only.

The reason more of the Patriots were tested is because the first one (the interception ball that seemingly caused the half time check) was 2+ PSI under. The next 9 were also under on the first gauge. The 11th passed. The 12th was also under. The same 11 that were under on the first gauge were also under on the second test. That is why they had to inflate the balls in order play the second half. All of the failures were between .7 and 2 PSI below.

The mountain of scientific evidence doesn't indicate they weren't tampered with. It only indicates its plausible the weather could have caused it -- not 100% did cause it.

But again, if it was 100% weather related, the Colts would have also had a similar number of balls at similar levels. They simply didn't.

[WVAPPeer]

Appstatenews - you are aware that the Patriots won that game 45-7 with the majority of their points coming in the second half after the "altered balls" were replaced -

[AppStateNews]

Appstatenews - you are aware that the Patriots won that game 45-7 with the majority of their points coming in the second half after the "altered balls" were replaced -

That's not the point at all.

[WVAPPeer]

No - it's not your point at all

[AppStateNews]

No - it's not your point at all

So because it was a blow out in the second half, that means even if they did cheat, it's ok? Got it!

My point is Tom Brady asked for the balls to be altered after the pre-game inspection and the equipment staff coordinated a locker room employee to make it happen. There is evidence of it happening for a year prior as well. This wasn't a one time thing.

[mike87]

So, did he cheat or not?

[postalapp90]

No - it's not your point at all

Wow you must be an Astros fan . Well we cheated but we would have won anyway.