school shooting

[3rd]

The founding fathers were not thinking about hunting when they wrote the 2ed amendment. Last time i checked the Constitution was set up so Americans could overthrow the govt. if it did not follow the Constitution, Yes i do agree it should be hard for some people to get guns, but come on we as Americans wana complain about this but yet the drunk who kills someone in a car doesn't draw this much attention. Should we take cars away too?? Finally about this assault rifle thing....the deadliest school shooting in the US happened with hand guns at VT. and BTW all of these horrible acts took place at places where guns are not allowed at all, malls,schools, movies

[AppGrad1]

The founding fathers were not thinking about hunting when they wrote the 2ed amendment. Last time i checked the Constitution was set up so Americans could overthrow the govt. if it did not follow the Constitution, Yes i do agree it should be hard for some people to get guns, but come on we as Americans wana complain about this but yet the drunk who kills someone in a car doesn't draw this much attention. Should we take cars away too?? Finally about this assault rifle thing....the deadliest school shooting in the US happened with hand guns at VT. and BTW all of these horrible acts took place at places where guns are not allowed at all, malls,schools, movies

Just for argument sake let's think about something... When the Constitution was written the government only pretty much had single shot guns along with the people... There was equal force.
Now days the government has automatic/ rifles to fight with if needed. If the people only had bolt action rifles how could they ever overthrow the government if needed? They would need weapons to match the government like in the older days right?

Thoughts??

[3rd]

They also put a way to modify the constitution to keep up with changing time...but for some reason our courts and laws seams to be above that... but you make a very interesting point and its very good to think on.

[proudofyosef]

I don't quite understand the logic on guns aren't allowed at schools, malls, etc. Last I checked, you're not frisked or metal detected when you enter a mall or a classroom at Virginia Tech. 50 percent of the guns in the world are in the U.S., where 5 percent of the population resides. I think we've got enough guns to take care of a nation full of Doomsday Preppers, which, by the way, is what the shooter's mom was obsessed with. Read the stories today. 40 percent of the guns purchased in this country were done so without a background check. This problem is complex and will require improvement in our mental health system, but there's no question access to high-powered automatic weapons that don't have to be reloaded for minutes at a time in this country is far too easy. Four of these mass shootings in the last year is just ridiculous--and it's got to be solved by thoughtful gun owners/sportsmen who don't swallow the redneck line of "Obama's coming for your guns!"

[appst89]

I don't quite understand the logic on guns aren't allowed at schools, malls, etc. Last I checked, you're not frisked or metal detected when you enter a mall or a classroom at Virginia Tech. 50 percent of the guns in the world are in the U.S., where 5 percent of the population resides. I think we've got enough guns to take care of a nation full of Doomsday Preppers, which, by the way, is what the shooter's mom was obsessed with. Read the stories today. 40 percent of the guns purchased in this country were done so without a background check. This problem is complex and will require improvement in our mental health system, but there's no question access to high-powered automatic weapons that don't have to be reloaded for minutes at a time in this country is far too easy. Four of these mass shootings in the last year is just ridiculous--and it's got to be solved by thoughtful gun owners/sportsmen who don't swallow the redneck line of "Obama's coming for your guns!"

Other than telling all the mods on the board to go to hell, what is your solution? The guns are already a out there. You think the inner city gangs, who are better armed than most police departments, are going to just go turn their weapons in because there is a law against it? These gangs are sending members to the military to get training so they can be more effective in dominating their turf. There are enough gun laws already on the books. How about we enforce them before we create an entirely new level of governmental bureaucracy?

Let's look at the eagerness to put three and four year old kids on powerful mood-altering drugs, let's look at the complete abandonment of parental responsibility in this country.

In my opinion, blaming the gun, an inanimate object, is a cop-out. It's an easy way by the politicians to avoid the real problems, and use the situation to accomplish politically that many of them have wanted to do for a long time.

[Rekdiver]

I am reposting my comments from another thread:

"Listen, I've made all the arguments in the past and I used to be a member of the NRA ..."people kill people guns don't......." and every other argument. Keep our hunting rifles, our handguns fine....but there is no longer a reason to have semi automatic assault style rifles or high capacity clips in the hands of anyone other than law enforcement and restricted to collectors with an improved set of qualifications. I no longer want to hear about knives, fertilizer , drunk drivers and all the other smoke screen arguments. Also there are certain kinds of ammunition that don't need to be made available. And if you are in law enforcement you know that you are outgunned......... We would not need more officers in the field if there were fewer guns. I am not a card carrying slobering liberal but I can't support current gun laws anymore"

[appbio91]

APP89,

This is a very simple minded sound bite type response one would expect from the NRA or those politicians enslaved by them. Of course guns don't kill people. The point is the military assault weapon and the 30 round clips used to massacre 20 children were purchased legally. Do you agree that anyone other than the military should be in possession of a weapon designed to kill as many people as possible in the quickest time frame possible. Oh but then the criminals will have them and I won't or what if we need to protect ourselves from the goverment. Give me a break.

[goapps93]

I don't quite understand the logic on guns aren't allowed at schools, malls, etc. Last I checked, you're not frisked or metal detected when you enter a mall or a classroom at Virginia Tech. 50 percent of the guns in the world are in the U.S., where 5 percent of the population resides. I think we've got enough guns to take care of a nation full of Doomsday Preppers, which, by the way, is what the shooter's mom was obsessed with. Read the stories today. 40 percent of the guns purchased in this country were done so without a background check. This problem is complex and will require improvement in our mental health system, but there's no question access to high-powered automatic weapons that don't have to be reloaded for minutes at a time in this country is far too easy. Four of these mass shootings in the last year is just ridiculous--and it's got to be solved by thoughtful gun owners/sportsmen who don't swallow the redneck line of "Obama's coming for your guns!"

Other than telling all the mods on the board to go to hell, what is your solution? The guns are already a out there. You think the inner city gangs, who are better armed than most police departments, are going to just go turn their weapons in because there is a law against it? These gangs are sending members to the military to get training so they can be more effective in dominating their turf. There are enough gun laws already on the books. How about we enforce them before we create an entirely new level of governmental bureaucracy?

Let's look at the eagerness to put three and four year old kids on powerful mood-altering drugs, let's look at the complete abandonment of parental responsibility in this country. In my opinion, blaming the gun, an inanimate object, is a cop-out. It's an easy way by the politicians to avoid the real problems, and use the situation to accomplish politically that many of them have wanted to do for a long time.

So glad you brought this up. This was one of my first thoughts Friday. I have wondered for awhile now about the long term effects of mood-altering medication on our children. Those kids who were growing during the boom of those drugs are now becoming young adults. I just wonder how many of these shooters have been or still are on those drugs.

[Rekdiver]

89
Do you have children? Imagine seeing your 6 year old child with 4 or 5 rounds from a bushmaster in his or her face or what's left of it.............Now tell me you still think there is a reason for an assault rifle with a 20 or 30 round clip.............There is no longer a defense in this country for support of these weapons. And I didn't vote for Obama, don't care for him. If I can't kill a deer with a bolt action 30.06 or a dove with a 3 shell shotgun then I don't need to be hunting. If we save one child in the future is it not worth it?

[appst89]

89
Do you have children? Imagine seeing your 6 year old child with 4 or 5 rounds from a bushmaster in his or her face or what's left of it.............Now tell me you still think there is a reason for an assault rifle with a 20 or 30 round clip.............There is no longer a defense in this country for support of these weapons. And I didn't vote for Obama, don't care for him. If I can't kill a deer with a bolt action 30.06 or a dove with a 3 shell shotgun then I don't need to be hunting. If we save one child in the future is it not worth it?

I do have a child, and I am horrified and saddened by what happened. And I can agree that something should be done. My only hesitance, as I said somewhere else, is the slippery slope it opens. I do not trust our government to do what it says it will do. If we open that door, it won't stop until there is a complete ban on private ownership of any firearm.
I also think focusing on just the gun is the wrong way to go. There has to be an effort made to look into the deeper problem of why we have so many kids like this today. Until I am convinced the politicians are willing to look at the whole issue and not just take the politically expedient, easy way out I'm not ready to support anything they are talking about doing.

[Appsolutely]

89
Do you have children? Imagine seeing your 6 year old child with 4 or 5 rounds from a bushmaster in his or her face or what's left of it.............Now tell me you still think there is a reason for an assault rifle with a 20 or 30 round clip.............There is no longer a defense in this country for support of these weapons. And I didn't vote for Obama, don't care for him. If I can't kill a deer with a bolt action 30.06 or a dove with a 3 shell shotgun then I don't need to be hunting. If we save one child in the future is it not worth it?

Unfortunately, some folks only come to this realization when the situation directly affects them. Empathy in this country is in short supply. And the argument that banning assault weapons will ultimately lead to a complete revocation of gun rights is a crock of NRA bullshit.

[appst89]

89
Do you have children? Imagine seeing your 6 year old child with 4 or 5 rounds from a bushmaster in his or her face or what's left of it.............Now tell me you still think there is a reason for an assault rifle with a 20 or 30 round clip.............There is no longer a defense in this country for support of these weapons. And I didn't vote for Obama, don't care for him. If I can't kill a deer with a bolt action 30.06 or a dove with a 3 shell shotgun then I don't need to be hunting. If we save one child in the future is it not worth it?

Unfortunately, some folks only come to this realization when the situation directly affects them. Empathy in this country is in short supply. And the argument that banning assualt weapons will ultimately lead to a complete revocation of gun rights is a crock of NRA bullshit.

Then prove it. You can't. I can't prove my belief either. But we have a history of government over-intrusion to look at that makes me pretty confident in saying it. And by the way, I am not an NRA member, so you need to come up with a new insulting platitude next time.

[TheMoody1]

Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Colombine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold’s medical records have never been made available to the public.

Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather’s girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.

Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.

Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac.

Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.

Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.

Jarred Viktor, age 15, stabbed his grandmother 61 times after 5 days on Paxil.

Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.

Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.

A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.

Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded..

A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another.

Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.

TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.

Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat.
James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers.

Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania
Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California

Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.

Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman.

Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic’s file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.

Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications.

Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.

Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.
Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.

Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family’s Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002.

[AppGrad1]

No one seems to have any thoughts on what I posted before.

Are we not supposed to have equal firepower against the government?
1700's there was equal fire power between government and citizens...
2000's there is equal fire power between government and citizens...

Is this not what the 2nd Amendment is about?
Would we be an oppressed people if we had no way to overthrow the government in firepower?

[AppGrad1]

Our country is a knee jerk reaction, political correct, media driven, Christ deprived nation...

How is this going to be fixed????
Start medications?
Take away guns?
Label more kids?
Make more laws?
Teach responsibility to parents?
Teach responsibility to kids?
Elect better officials?
More police?

If we think ANYTHING, I say ANYTHING is going to fix/help these problems then we are just as fooling ourselves.
Until this nation as a whole focuses it's eyes on Christ we will continue to fall.
That being said, our nation is doomed. It WILL NOT GET ANY BETTER.

[Appsolutely]

89
Do you have children? Imagine seeing your 6 year old child with 4 or 5 rounds from a bushmaster in his or her face or what's left of it.............Now tell me you still think there is a reason for an assault rifle with a 20 or 30 round clip.............There is no longer a defense in this country for support of these weapons. And I didn't vote for Obama, don't care for him. If I can't kill a deer with a bolt action 30.06 or a dove with a 3 shell shotgun then I don't need to be hunting. If we save one child in the future is it not worth it?

Unfortunately, some folks only come to this realization when the situation directly affects them. Empathy in this country is in short supply. And the argument that banning assualt weapons will ultimately lead to a complete revocation of gun rights is a crock of NRA bullshit.

Then prove it. You can't. I can't prove my belief either. But we have a history of government over-intrusion to look at that makes me pretty confident in saying it. And by the way, I am not an NRA member, so you need to come up with a new insulting platitude next time.

"Insulting platitude"? A bit sensitive this morning, aren't we?

I don't give a fat rat's ass whether you are a member of the NRA or not. You've bought into their main talking point about assault rifles, regardless. I don't get the government paranoia that is so rampant these days. What rights, exactly, has the government taken away from you? We had a ban on assault rifles at one point. Did that result in the revocation of other gun ownership rights? At least there is some past history to back up my contention that a ban on assault rifles isn't going to result in a complete loss of gun-ownership rights.

[appst89]

89
Do you have children? Imagine seeing your 6 year old child with 4 or 5 rounds from a bushmaster in his or her face or what's left of it.............Now tell me you still think there is a reason for an assault rifle with a 20 or 30 round clip.............There is no longer a defense in this country for support of these weapons. And I didn't vote for Obama, don't care for him. If I can't kill a deer with a bolt action 30.06 or a dove with a 3 shell shotgun then I don't need to be hunting. If we save one child in the future is it not worth it?

Unfortunately, some folks only come to this realization when the situation directly affects them. Empathy in this country is in short supply. And the argument that banning assualt weapons will ultimately lead to a complete revocation of gun rights is a crock of NRA bullshit.

Then prove it. You can't. I can't prove my belief either. But we have a history of government over-intrusion to look at that makes me pretty confident in saying it. And by the way, I am not an NRA member, so you need to come up with a new insulting platitude next time.

"Insulting platitude"? A bit sensitive this morning, aren't we? I don't give a fat rat's ass whether you are a member of the NRA or not. You've bought into their main talking point about assault rifles, regardless. I don't get the government paranoia that is so rampant these days. What rights, exactly, has the government taken away from you?

Not sensitive, just call 'em as I see 'em.

I haven't bought into any of their talking points because I don't know what their talking points are. As much of a surprise as I know it must be, I came to my opinion without any help from the NRA or anyone else.

As for right lost, well, the PATRIOT Act alone degrades the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th and 14th Amendments. If you don't see a reason to be frightened by our government (both sides) then we are not watching the same things.

I'd bet my house and all my worldly possessions (as meager as they may be) that it won't stop with just assault weapons.

[rbarthle17]

If we were to ban semi-automatic and assault weapons, I fully get that you're not taking 100% of them out of play. Nobody should be that naive.

BUT... if you put the ban in place, and enforce it, you've limited the pool of potential future owners of these guns to a much smaller potential percentage. Also, you will absolutely weed out a good percentage of people interested in getting these guns. Not the most determined, but even if you've knocked off only 80% of the people that would have otherwise gotten their hands on the guns, that's a huge win.

Also, I don't think anyone is saying to disarm the military or law enforcement groups. There will still be the capability to fight "the gangs" as some people have alluded to. We still have to deal with the worst of the worst. No laws will change that. What laws like these can do is help make it so the amount of additional people you have to deal with is a lot less.

I put out a question of why citizens need these weapons. The best answer I have gotten so far is "they may need them in the future". That's not close to a good enough reason to keep them in play now.

What I hear is people don't want is their "freedom" impacted. But if you were never going to purchase an assault rifle, what freedom is actually being negated? If it bothers you that your freedom to buy something that has no practical usage for the everyday citizen has been taken away, then all I have to say to that is "tough ****".

[Rekdiver]

No one seems to have any thoughts on what I posted before.

Are we not supposed to have equal firepower against the government?
1700's there was equal fire power between government and citizens...
2000's there is equal fire power between government and citizens...

Is this not what the 2nd Amendment is about?
Would we be an oppressed people if we had no way to overthrow the government in firepower?

Are you kidding me?

2000's -----citizens had too much firepower to kill 26 6 and 7 year olds in 10 minutes.

A bushmaster is going to help you against a tank? We don't need these assault weapons.

[firemoose]

I posted this in the other thread but it applies here too. As I said at the bottom sorry for the novel.

Drugs have been illegal in this country for many, many years and yet millions of people use them everyday. It is supposed to be illegal in this country for people to cross the border without the proper paperwork yet many do everyday. Why? Because there is profit in the risk. That is why people smuggle what they do into the US. And surprise, many of the most dangerous assault weapons and many firearms in general, just like a lot of things, are not even made here but overseas and shipped in. For every type of weapon that is banned there will be a criminal who will start to smuggle them in because there will be a profit to do so.

I am a life member of the NRA because I have been a competitive shooter since I was ten years old. We even had a (gulp) gun club in high school. Can you imagine if that were suggested today? However, I disagree with the NRA on several points. I don't think there is a reason for military style weapons except to waste ammo and money. I have had a few before and that's all they were good for in my case. Unfortunately others have worse uses for them. I also don't think there is a reason to allow any gun to be purchased without a complete and thorough background check including people in the home who might have access to the weapons. I have never agreed with being able to purchase a weapon from a gun show that day. I have no problem with waiting for a few days or weeks if it can keep guns from ending up in the wrong hands. If you need it that day then something is either wrong with you or you should have began the search sooner. Ammo purchases and supplies should be tracked. There have been many times over the years that I have gone through a thousand rounds in national events using all three types of weapons. I have a reason for having that much ammo and have no problem showing why. The average person should have no need to have hundreds or thousands of rounds of ammo.

That being said my worry is that, as usual, the goverment will take things too far or not do enough. There is never a middle ground these days, it's either all or nothing on nearly every topic. I don't have assualt weapons but I also don't believe, as was posted above, that all semi-automatic weapons are assault weapons, because they are not. My 12 ga Charles Daly semi-automatic shotgun holds 3 with the plug and 5 without it. It is not a military weapon but under some things being discussed it would be banned. I also have no extended clips, just factory, but my semi-auto handguns would also be banned. I also heard people say that hunting should be banned. That is off the deep end. If you've ever seen starving animals then you would understand that there is a reason for hunting. Cut it out and there is not enough food for the explosion of animals that would occur. Starving is not the ideal way for an animal to die but many would.

There are even things that can be done to the guns themselves such as electronic locks and fingerprint scanners built into the grips so only the proper person can fire the weapon. I would take the added expense for measures like that rather than to remove all guns, as many are suggesting. No doubt something has to be done but there needs to be accross the board fixes and changes in everything. One or two will not stop the violence.
Sorry for the novel