Ifs and Buts

[AppStFan1]

So this is an IF but I would like to know what ya'll think ...

IF Clark wins out ... does he keep his job? Do we say okay it's okay for us to just coast the first of the year then when the seats get hot and we win?

Do we think Clark does not get renewed from here? Maybe he finishes one more year after this and we just do not renew his contract.

I hate to see us so bad at the beginning of the year. This can't become our tradition.

Yes but I think he is on hot seat next year and another bad start would cost him his job when the buyout drops again.

The renewal is an interesting debate because I am sure Gillin would not want a buyout on any added years but Clark would want it.

[Stonewall]

My take from the weekend in Boone … He’s on the hot seat now and has been . He knows it. Only winning cools the seat. Given the hurricane and frankly the death of Jack Murphy, there is sympathy but as I was told by someone who will be at the discussion table seasons end , it’s a business. I don’t know, but I think that he has to have a winning record this season. However the above circumstances may weigh heavily in his favor. And again , it’s not Doug’s decision, it’s whoever is sitting at the Chancellor’s desk.

[AppWyo]

Bottom line, this season would have been very different if Drinkwitz had not taken Nate Noel from us.

The line after that, had Shawn Clark been hired after Saterfield we would not have had Drinkwitz screw over this program by setting unrealistic expectations.

You look at Missouri and Indiana, both schools are the flagship universities of their respective states, which have both the resources of the SEC and Big Ten. These schools like UCF, Cincinati, Boise State, the American Conference, that some people believe it would be great to be a part, look at their overall record and you will see that it is not all roses. We only follow the teams that are winning. You do not see all of the ugliness with those programs. Much like the neighbor's grass is always greener. It is not, it looks greener due to your perspective. If you were to go over to their yard, your yard looks greener.

Appalachian has things now that it never had before. Two College Game Day appearances and two wins during those appearances. Wins over AP ranked opponents. Sold out season tickets. Situations no one would have ever dreamed of like NIL, Transfer Portal, Helene, Covid 19, legal sports gambling, death of a player.

Shawn Clark has met those challenges and has continued to evolve, he is not the same coach that first took the job, he has changed and adapted to the changing landscape of college football.

We as fans need to evolve as well.

I once heard a former football player from Alabama remark, 'I hate Alabama Fans, because their expectation are so unrealistic.' 'Winning every game was not enough, you had to win every game by a lot to make them happy.'

Some people would like for App to be the "Bosie State of the East." I think that is setting the bar too low, in my opinion. Appalachian has never had to vacate any wins in football, I hope they never do. However, all it would take is some coach that believes winning is more important than values or people and it would all come crashing down. Who wants to have a winning season vacated? If you really want to see something sad, just go and look at FSU. That is what Appalachian would become if winning became the priority over people.

Appalachian is a special place to us all, because that is where we went to school. The fact that we have a winning tradition like no other, that is a perk, but that is not the reason most of us went to school there. Most of us either had relatives that went to school there or were turned down by our first choice, maybe even further down the list for some. This is our school, this is our team, and everyone does their very best to take us down. We have made a lot of enemies along the way, and we will continue to do so.

Be glad that you are a Mountaineer...

[Saint3333]

Strange take on Drink and Nate. Nate Noel wouldn't have one tackle this season or one pancake block.

One of my biggest flaws is I'm too proud to be a Mountaineer.

[t4pizza]

I really think the better question to ask is when will we have a full time Chancellor announced. I just don't see an interim Chancellor firing the highest paid employee of the school when he has a winning record. Generally speaking, new Chancellor and new ADs like to bring in their guys to coach. Does anyone really think an interim is going to do this heavy lifting? How will the "powers that be" who will name our next Chancellor going to view the firing of a winning coach and the payout of his remaining contract? Remember, most of these "powers that be" are UNC alums that would frankly be thrilled with Clarks record and probably won't understand why little old App State isn't happy with it. I really believe that the best job security for Clark is the fact that we don't have a full time Chancellor. Just my take.

[T-Dog]

I know interior work at the Chancellor's house was supposed to wrap up by December in anticipation of a new resident.

[Bigdaddyg1]

In terms of “hot seat” I’d think that any good coach with half a brain knows when his seat is at least warm. There’s no way SC is remotely happy about the end results over the last few years. Teams put in countless hours trying to practice, install plays and develop a depth chart. We as armchair coaches spout off every time a player screws up and we scream (at least the lunatic fringe does) for replacements and based on half a dozen threads firings across the board. The comments that starting popping up suggesting a change a quarterback were about crazy. Joey does some dumb stuff (like the near PIC Saturday on the underhand toss) but he also takes off and runs and makes first downs and drops dimes. I totally agree that coaching involves a nice paycheck and also involves criticism but the level of repeated stuff here is over the top.

[MrCraig]

Bottom line, this season would have been very different if Drinkwitz had not taken Nate Noel from us.

The line after that, had Shawn Clark been hired after Saterfield we would not have had Drinkwitz screw over this program by setting unrealistic expectations.

You look at Missouri and Indiana, both schools are the flagship universities of their respective states, which have both the resources of the SEC and Big Ten. These schools like UCF, Cincinati, Boise State, the American Conference, that some people believe it would be great to be a part, look at their overall record and you will see that it is not all roses. We only follow the teams that are winning. You do not see all of the ugliness with those programs. Much like the neighbor's grass is always greener. It is not, it looks greener due to your perspective. If you were to go over to their yard, your yard looks greener.

Appalachian has things now that it never had before. Two College Game Day appearances and two wins during those appearances. Wins over AP ranked opponents. Sold out season tickets. Situations no one would have ever dreamed of like NIL, Transfer Portal, Helene, Covid 19, legal sports gambling, death of a player.

Shawn Clark has met those challenges and has continued to evolve, he is not the same coach that first took the job, he has changed and adapted to the changing landscape of college football.

We as fans need to evolve as well.

I once heard a former football player from Alabama remark, 'I hate Alabama Fans, because their expectation are so unrealistic.' 'Winning every game was not enough, you had to win every game by a lot to make them happy.'

Some people would like for App to be the "Bosie State of the East." I think that is setting the bar too low, in my opinion. Appalachian has never had to vacate any wins in football, I hope they never do. However, all it would take is some coach that believes winning is more important than values or people and it would all come crashing down. Who wants to have a winning season vacated? If you really want to see something sad, just go and look at FSU. That is what Appalachian would become if winning became the priority over people.

Appalachian is a special place to us all, because that is where we went to school. The fact that we have a winning tradition like no other, that is a perk, but that is not the reason most of us went to school there. Most of us either had relatives that went to school there or were turned down by our first choice, maybe even further down the list for some. This is our school, this is our team, and everyone does their very best to take us down. We have made a lot of enemies along the way, and we will continue to do so.

Be glad that you are a Mountaineer...

This is just terrible take after terrible take. Drinkwitz screwed over the program by... winning too much?
I've become convinced over the last two seasons that the hate for Drinkwitz is 100% manufactured in order to make more excuses for why Clark hasn't performed to the level expected at App State. Yes, even great coaches like Jerry Moore and Scott Satterfield had down years, that's going to happen. But the problems with App football under Shawn Clark have been the same every year for the last 5 years. You are correct that he has evolved in many ways, but he has stayed the same or regressed in other ways.
Finally, miss me with the "Situations no one would have ever dreamed of like NIL, Transfer Portal, Helene, Covid 19, legal sports gambling, death of a player." Literally every single college football program has dealt with NIL, transfer portal, Covid-19, and legal gambling, and they've all had some sort of unique adversity on top of that. To further your example, Alabama fans have unrealistic expectations because Bear Bryant and Nick Saban set them there. Alabama was hit with the largest tornado outbreak in the history of the state in 2011. One of those tornadoes literally hit Tuscaloosa. Alabama didn't use that as an excuse for losing, they won the national championship that year.

[mike87]

A good HC has to plan for 2 years out. Drink made the most of his one season and his planning for 2 years out was for him, not for us. That's how he "screwed us". He made the most of the talent he had which was incredibly good for us, but he didn't set us up for future success.

As to Clark, his decisions and ability to land key coordinators has been remarkable. Overall management of the team is good. But he and the coordinators he's brought in aren't getting it done in the Win column. Makes for a tough decision, but I'm not at the firing point because I remember the celebrating at each coordinator hire at the time of the hiring.

[BallantyneApp]

Bottom line, this season would have been very different if Drinkwitz had not taken Nate Noel from us.

The line after that, had Shawn Clark been hired after Saterfield we would not have had Drinkwitz screw over this program by setting unrealistic expectations.

You look at Missouri and Indiana, both schools are the flagship universities of their respective states, which have both the resources of the SEC and Big Ten. These schools like UCF, Cincinati, Boise State, the American Conference, that some people believe it would be great to be a part, look at their overall record and you will see that it is not all roses. We only follow the teams that are winning. You do not see all of the ugliness with those programs. Much like the neighbor's grass is always greener. It is not, it looks greener due to your perspective. If you were to go over to their yard, your yard looks greener.

Appalachian has things now that it never had before. Two College Game Day appearances and two wins during those appearances. Wins over AP ranked opponents. Sold out season tickets. Situations no one would have ever dreamed of like NIL, Transfer Portal, Helene, Covid 19, legal sports gambling, death of a player.

Shawn Clark has met those challenges and has continued to evolve, he is not the same coach that first took the job, he has changed and adapted to the changing landscape of college football.

We as fans need to evolve as well.

I once heard a former football player from Alabama remark, 'I hate Alabama Fans, because their expectation are so unrealistic.' 'Winning every game was not enough, you had to win every game by a lot to make them happy.'

Some people would like for App to be the "Bosie State of the East." I think that is setting the bar too low, in my opinion. Appalachian has never had to vacate any wins in football, I hope they never do. However, all it would take is some coach that believes winning is more important than values or people and it would all come crashing down. Who wants to have a winning season vacated? If you really want to see something sad, just go and look at FSU. That is what Appalachian would become if winning became the priority over people.

Appalachian is a special place to us all, because that is where we went to school. The fact that we have a winning tradition like no other, that is a perk, but that is not the reason most of us went to school there. Most of us either had relatives that went to school there or were turned down by our first choice, maybe even further down the list for some. This is our school, this is our team, and everyone does their very best to take us down. We have made a lot of enemies along the way, and we will continue to do so.

Be glad that you are a Mountaineer...

The takes just get wilder and wilder. Imagine hearing a ceo or president “hey the last guy really screwed the country over by doing too good of a job”, “the last ceo really screwed this company over by making too much money”

I'm sorry drinkwitz came in and showed everyone what was possible at "lil ole appy state" instead of losing 4-6 games so now we know top 20 seasons (and more) are possible here?

[fjblair]

Wake up folks, we have this conversation every year. Clark is undeniably the wrong man for this job, and this program cannot progress to the level that we have come to expect without new leadership and a new direction. I love the guy, but we have to move on.

[MrCraig]

Wake up folks, we have this conversation every year. Clark is undeniably the wrong man for this job, and this program cannot progress to the level that we have come to expect without new leadership and a new direction. I love the guy, but we have to move on.

Agreed.
I'd like to add for the folks saying we have "unrealistic expectations," a playoff appearance every year is unrealistic. 8-10 wins and being in the conference championship conversation 8/9 out of 10 years is not unrealistic. It's what good, consistent G5 programs like Memphis, Cincy, Boise State, etc. do. It's what App used to do.

[WASU 93]

Wake up folks, we have this conversation every year. Clark is undeniably the wrong man for this job, and this program cannot progress to the level that we have come to expect without new leadership and a new direction. I love the guy, but we have to move on.

Agreed.
I'd like to add for the folks saying we have "unrealistic expectations," a playoff appearance every year is unrealistic. 8-10 wins and being in the conference championship conversation 8/9 out of 10 years is not unrealistic. It's what good, consistent G5 programs like Memphis, Cincy, Boise State, etc. do. It's what App used to do.

2020-2024
Memphis 8-3 6-6 7-6 10-3. (7-2 this year) overall 38-20. (trending towards 3 years of 8-10 wins)
Boise. 5-2 7-5 10-4 8-6 (7-1) overall 37-18. (trending towards 3 years of 8-10 wins)
Cincy (no longer G5) 9-1 13-1 9-4 3-9 (5-3) overall 39-18. (might hit 4 years of 8-10 wins)
App 9-3 10-4 6-6 9-5 (4-4) overall 38-22. (already has three years of 8-10 wins--that will be a stretch this year to get a 4th)

[t4pizza]

Wake up folks, we have this conversation every year. Clark is undeniably the wrong man for this job, and this program cannot progress to the level that we have come to expect without new leadership and a new direction. I love the guy, but we have to move on.

Agreed.
I'd like to add for the folks saying we have "unrealistic expectations," a playoff appearance every year is unrealistic. 8-10 wins and being in the conference championship conversation 8/9 out of 10 years is not unrealistic. It's what good, consistent G5 programs like Memphis, Cincy, Boise State, etc. do. It's what App used to do.

2020-2024
Memphis 8-3 6-6 7-6 10-3. (7-2 this year) overall 38-20. (trending towards 3 years of 8-10 wins)
Boise. 5-2 7-5 10-4 8-6 (7-1) overall 37-18. (trending towards 3 years of 8-10 wins)
Cincy (no longer G5) 9-1 13-1 9-4 3-9 (5-3) overall 39-18. (might hit 4 years of 8-10 wins)
App 9-3 10-4 6-6 9-5 (4-4) overall 38-22. (already has three years of 8-10 wins--that will be a stretch this year to get a 4th)

Don't use statistics and facts to demonstrate that even during this "down time" in our program we still have similar success numbers to the "good, consistent G5 programs..."

[WASU 93]

Wake up folks, we have this conversation every year. Clark is undeniably the wrong man for this job, and this program cannot progress to the level that we have come to expect without new leadership and a new direction. I love the guy, but we have to move on.

Agreed.
I'd like to add for the folks saying we have "unrealistic expectations," a playoff appearance every year is unrealistic. 8-10 wins and being in the conference championship conversation 8/9 out of 10 years is not unrealistic. It's what good, consistent G5 programs like Memphis, Cincy, Boise State, etc. do. It's what App used to do.

2020-2024
Memphis 8-3 6-6 7-6 10-3. (7-2 this year) overall 38-20. (trending towards 3 years of 8-10 wins)
Boise. 5-2 7-5 10-4 8-6 (7-1) overall 37-18. (trending towards 3 years of 8-10 wins)
Cincy (no longer G5) 9-1 13-1 9-4 3-9 (5-3) overall 39-18. (might hit 4 years of 8-10 wins)
App 9-3 10-4 6-6 9-5 (4-4) overall 38-22. (already has three years of 8-10 wins--that will be a stretch this year to get a 4th)

Don't use statistics and facts to demonstrate that even during this "down time" in our program we still have similar success numbers to the "good, consistent G5 programs..."

We're not where any of us want to be. But, we still beat the historical trends of most "successful" programs.

[MrCraig]

Wake up folks, we have this conversation every year. Clark is undeniably the wrong man for this job, and this program cannot progress to the level that we have come to expect without new leadership and a new direction. I love the guy, but we have to move on.

Agreed.
I'd like to add for the folks saying we have "unrealistic expectations," a playoff appearance every year is unrealistic. 8-10 wins and being in the conference championship conversation 8/9 out of 10 years is not unrealistic. It's what good, consistent G5 programs like Memphis, Cincy, Boise State, etc. do. It's what App used to do.

2020-2024
Memphis 8-3 6-6 7-6 10-3. (7-2 this year) overall 38-20. (trending towards 3 years of 8-10 wins)
Boise. 5-2 7-5 10-4 8-6 (7-1) overall 37-18. (trending towards 3 years of 8-10 wins)
Cincy (no longer G5) 9-1 13-1 9-4 3-9 (5-3) overall 39-18. (might hit 4 years of 8-10 wins)
App 9-3 10-4 6-6 9-5 (4-4) overall 38-22. (already has three years of 8-10 wins--that will be a stretch this year to get a 4th)

Don't use statistics and facts to demonstrate that even during this "down time" in our program we still have similar success numbers to the "good, consistent G5 programs..."

I'm not a huge stats guy, but I do know how "small sample size" skews them. Take all three of those teams, plus App, and go back 10 years instead of 4.
Average wins per year:
Memphis- 7.8
Boise State- 9.4
Cincy- 8
App- 9.5

HOWEVAH! Since moving up to FBS, App has only had 2 seasons of less than 9 wins. One of those seasons was under Clark, and it's looking very likely it will happen again this year.

[WASU 93]

Wake up folks, we have this conversation every year. Clark is undeniably the wrong man for this job, and this program cannot progress to the level that we have come to expect without new leadership and a new direction. I love the guy, but we have to move on.

Agreed.
I'd like to add for the folks saying we have "unrealistic expectations," a playoff appearance every year is unrealistic. 8-10 wins and being in the conference championship conversation 8/9 out of 10 years is not unrealistic. It's what good, consistent G5 programs like Memphis, Cincy, Boise State, etc. do. It's what App used to do.

2020-2024
Memphis 8-3 6-6 7-6 10-3. (7-2 this year) overall 38-20. (trending towards 3 years of 8-10 wins)
Boise. 5-2 7-5 10-4 8-6 (7-1) overall 37-18. (trending towards 3 years of 8-10 wins)
Cincy (no longer G5) 9-1 13-1 9-4 3-9 (5-3) overall 39-18. (might hit 4 years of 8-10 wins)
App 9-3 10-4 6-6 9-5 (4-4) overall 38-22. (already has three years of 8-10 wins--that will be a stretch this year to get a 4th)

Don't use statistics and facts to demonstrate that even during this "down time" in our program we still have similar success numbers to the "good, consistent G5 programs..."

I'm not a huge stats guy, but I do know how "small sample size" skews them. Take all three of those teams, plus App, and go back 10 years instead of 4.
Average wins per year:
Memphis- 7.8
Boise State- 9.4
Cincy- 8
App- 9.5

HOWEVAH! Since moving up to FBS, App has only had 2 seasons of less than 9 wins. One of those seasons was under Clark, and it's looking very likely it will happen again this year.

So, App is better than "Good, Consistent programs" normally and has now fallen to the level of "Good, Consistent" Programs?

[AppStFan1]

My take from the weekend in Boone … He’s on the hot seat now and has been . He knows it. Only winning cools the seat. Given the hurricane and frankly the death of Jack Murphy, there is sympathy but as I was told by someone who will be at the discussion table seasons end , it’s a business. I don’t know, but I think that he has to have a winning record this season. However the above circumstances may weigh heavily in his favor. And again , it’s not Doug’s decision, it’s whoever is sitting at the Chancellor’s desk.

I would fully agree on this. Regardless of all the others it is a business decision. He is 100% coaching scared for his job right now.

[EastHallApp]

Strange take on Drink and Nate. Nate Noel wouldn't have one tackle this season or one pancake block.

One of my biggest flaws is I'm too proud to be a Mountaineer.

Also grasping for straws to pin all the troubles on the fact that a guy who played four full seasons at App didn't return for a fifth, bonus season that won't even be an option for players soon.

[AppStFan1]

Strange take on Drink and Nate. Nate Noel wouldn't have one tackle this season or one pancake block.

One of my biggest flaws is I'm too proud to be a Mountaineer.

Also grasping for straws to pin all the troubles on the fact that a guy who played four full seasons at App didn't return for a fifth, bonus season that won't even be an option for players soon.

Yeah people got to remember that. After next year there won't be any COVID players left at all unless they did a normal redshirt and a medical redshirt since 2020. Teams won't be able to bank on those.