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Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

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Re: Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

Unread post by ericsaid » Fri Sep 15, 2023 4:16 pm

t4pizza wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2023 2:43 pm
I really am not sure about that at all. Taylor Lamb was very much a complete qb even if he didn't have the strongest arm and Zac Thomas was a complete qb even if he lacked touch because his arm was too strong and Chase Brice was a complete qb even if he was mostly immobile and lacked speed. Glad everyone loves Joey and I hope he turns out to be the best ever but lets not pretend we have been suffering from sub par qb play since AE wore the Black and Gold.
You listed a bunch of reasons why guys weren't the "all around best". Joey, thus far, seems to combine everything from arm, processing, release, and speed into one. Thus, he is pretty complete.

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Re: Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

Unread post by t4pizza » Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:19 pm

ericsaid wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2023 4:16 pm
t4pizza wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2023 2:43 pm
I really am not sure about that at all. Taylor Lamb was very much a complete qb even if he didn't have the strongest arm and Zac Thomas was a complete qb even if he lacked touch because his arm was too strong and Chase Brice was a complete qb even if he was mostly immobile and lacked speed. Glad everyone loves Joey and I hope he turns out to be the best ever but lets not pretend we have been suffering from sub par qb play since AE wore the Black and Gold.
You listed a bunch of reasons why guys weren't the "all around best". Joey, thus far, seems to combine everything from arm, processing, release, and speed into one. Thus, he is pretty complete.
I was responding to a comment that we hadn't had a complete since AE (or something to that extent) and explaining how that just wasn't true. All the guys I mentioned were complete qbs. Joey is good and hopefully gets better but he makes mistakes for sure and at this point and I don't think he is anywhere near the complete qb that all those other guys turned out to be in their careers. That doesn't mean he might not become one but he isn't there now. I think we all just need to pump our brakes on him and let him continue to learn and improve before we crown him as the best since AE. I hope he gets there but he isn't there now and throwing a bunch of accolades at a kid that has now only played 3 games for us seems a bit premature.

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Re: Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

Unread post by appstatealum » Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:03 pm

Joey is way more decisive that Lamb or ZT. It's not a knock on them, but Joey has that "it" favtor that makes you believe he's capable of making any throw. Brice/ZT/Lamb all had limitations that gave me incredible anxiety. I'm not saying he's better (yet), but I don't recall having this type of confidence with a QB since Armanti manned the ship.
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Re: Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

Unread post by AppStFan1 » Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:49 pm

appstatealum wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:03 pm
Joey is way more decisive that Lamb or ZT. It's not a knock on them, but Joey has that "it" favtor that makes you believe he's capable of making any throw. Brice/ZT/Lamb all had limitations that gave me incredible anxiety. I'm not saying he's better (yet), but I don't recall having this type of confidence with a QB since Armanti manned the ship.
Agree. I have gone from feeling like we will lose at least 3-4 games this year to feeling like we could win any game with Joey at QB. He needs to cut down on some mistakes and decision making some to be complete but he has a good arm with mobility that gives me confidence we can be dangerous on offense the rest of the season.

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Re: Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

Unread post by Black Saturday » Mon Sep 18, 2023 5:41 am

The pick 6 Saturday had a lot to do with the quick pressure, his confidence told him he could make the throw, other options take a safety, not sure from the angle the pressure in his face came from would allow him to throw it away. All of this had to be processed within tenths of a second. Anyway he can be coached on what to do if there is a next time similar situation.

He sort of reminds me of Sam Hartman.
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Re: Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

Unread post by appstatealum » Mon Sep 18, 2023 7:20 am

Black Saturday wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 5:41 am
The pick 6 Saturday had a lot to do with the quick pressure, his confidence told him he could make the throw, other options take a safety, not sure from the angle the pressure in his face came from would allow him to throw it away. All of this had to be processed within tenths of a second. Anyway he can be coached on what to do if there is a next time similar situation.

He sort of reminds me of Sam Hartman.
Right. Ponce will likely start to feel more comfortable calling certain plays with Joey knowing Joey will take the risk. Those third and longs in the red zone should have been throws vs runs and a 3rd and long backed up in our 15 should've been a run. It's on the OC to create an environment for our players to succeed. And I'll preface this by saying I was not a fan of Ponce, but he's impressed me overall with his play design and script. You can tell a gunslinger to "not make the throw if it's not there" until you're blue in the face, but that type of fearless QB is always going to see a possibility and you have to call the play knowing that. Patrick Mahomes/Josh Allen throw some absolutely stupid passes A LOT, but obviously they are talented enough to pull it off more often than not. You live with it as a fan bc of the heroic potential each throw could lead to. I personally cant wait to see what the ceiling is for this kid.
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Re: Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

Unread post by AppSt94 » Mon Sep 18, 2023 7:42 am

appstatealum wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 7:20 am
Black Saturday wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 5:41 am
The pick 6 Saturday had a lot to do with the quick pressure, his confidence told him he could make the throw, other options take a safety, not sure from the angle the pressure in his face came from would allow him to throw it away. All of this had to be processed within tenths of a second. Anyway he can be coached on what to do if there is a next time similar situation.

He sort of reminds me of Sam Hartman.
Right. Ponce will likely start to feel more comfortable calling certain plays with Joey knowing Joey will take the risk. Those third and longs in the red zone should have been throws vs runs and a 3rd and long backed up in our 15 should've been a run. It's on the OC to create an environment for our players to succeed. And I'll preface this by saying I was not a fan of Ponce, but he's impressed me overall with his play design and script. You can tell a gunslinger to "not make the throw if it's not there" until you're blue in the face, but that type of fearless QB is always going to see a possibility and you have to call the play knowing that. Patrick Mahomes/Josh Allen throw some absolutely stupid passes A LOT, but obviously they are talented enough to pull it off more often than not. You live with it as a fan bc of the heroic potential each throw could lead to. I personally cant wait to see what the ceiling is for this kid.
And to be completely honest, no one liked the decision and certainly not the results, but the throw itself was impressive. It was on time, accurate and had the zip. The DB made a good play. It happens.

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Re: Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

Unread post by App91 » Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:51 am

Saw this on the UNC Concord board. Interesting to say the least.

Image

Sorry could not get the pic to paste

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Re: Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

Unread post by Black Saturday » Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:57 am

App91 wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:51 am
Saw this on the UNC Concord board. Interesting to say the least.

Image

Sorry could not get the pic to paste
Hey Rob, I'm not smart enough to read that chart.
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Re: Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

Unread post by biggie » Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:03 pm

According to that chart Joey's QBR is about 35 or so it looks like. But on ESPN he is at 68.5.

And McCall is at 66.3 but shows on the chart at 85 or so, that chart is very suspect.

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Re: Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

Unread post by ericsaid » Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:15 pm

Black Saturday wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 5:41 am
The pick 6 Saturday had a lot to do with the quick pressure, his confidence told him he could make the throw, other options take a safety, not sure from the angle the pressure in his face came from would allow him to throw it away. All of this had to be processed within tenths of a second. Anyway he can be coached on what to do if there is a next time similar situation.

He sort of reminds me of Sam Hartman.
I don't usually do this but that seems like it was on Ponce. We checked into that play late, and it ends up being two out routes against man coverage with bracket coverage from the safety. He didn't have any option on that play call and a time out should've been called, in my opinion. Didn't look good from the moment ECU made their late shift.

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Re: Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

Unread post by ericsaid » Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:18 pm

App91 wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:51 am
Saw this on the UNC Concord board. Interesting to say the least.

Image

Sorry could not get the pic to paste
PFF Grades. People love them when they say what they want and hate them when they don't. I know Joey has had streaks of iffy play against UNC and ECU but then adjustments are made and he goes on a tear. The game plan against ECU, early on, was obvious and Joey was trying to execute that. Then they made the change to go with more of the intermediate routes and Joey started dropping dimes again.

I'd also think that they give negative points for 50/50 balls and we know Ponce loves his 50/50 deep balls.

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Re: Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

Unread post by t4pizza » Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:48 pm

I could be entirely wrong here but I think that on each play, there are multiple reads that Joey can make and decide where he wants to go with the ball. He seems to decide presnap who he is going to based on the look he gets. I think the reason we went with the intermediate play in the second half is most likely because it was pointed out to Joey how often those intermediate routes are open as he is forcing the 50/50 ball. Again, I could be wrong but I doubt that when a play is called, that there is only one option to throw it to. That just doesn't make any sense to me.

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Re: Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

Unread post by 311neers » Tue Sep 19, 2023 2:01 pm

ericsaid wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:15 pm
Black Saturday wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 5:41 am
The pick 6 Saturday had a lot to do with the quick pressure, his confidence told him he could make the throw, other options take a safety, not sure from the angle the pressure in his face came from would allow him to throw it away. All of this had to be processed within tenths of a second. Anyway he can be coached on what to do if there is a next time similar situation.

He sort of reminds me of Sam Hartman.
I don't usually do this but that seems like it was on Ponce. We checked into that play late, and it ends up being two out routes against man coverage with bracket coverage from the safety. He didn't have any option on that play call and a time out should've been called, in my opinion. Didn't look good from the moment ECU made their late shift.
Yup, saw it coming before the snap. Run, run, run, punt. Live another day. Especially after we picked up 4 on the 1st down. 50/50 ball wasn't it either on 2nd down, that was almost picked too, unless we were praying for PI. Never a good feeling that you know it's a pick 6 before you release the ball.

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Re: Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

Unread post by ericsaid » Tue Sep 19, 2023 3:58 pm

t4pizza wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:48 pm
I could be entirely wrong here but I think that on each play, there are multiple reads that Joey can make and decide where he wants to go with the ball. He seems to decide presnap who he is going to based on the look he gets. I think the reason we went with the intermediate play in the second half is most likely because it was pointed out to Joey how often those intermediate routes are open as he is forcing the 50/50 ball. Again, I could be wrong but I doubt that when a play is called, that there is only one option to throw it to. That just doesn't make any sense to me.
I doubt he would just force the 50/50 ball based on what we've seen. And if the coaches were seeing the intermediate routes open earlier, surely someone told him on the sideline when he called up to Ponce? No? I think the game plan was to take deep shots, even if you don't connect, to get the running game going. ECU's run defense was really good against Michigan and Marshall so you had to soften them up by showing a willingness to attack deep and that's what Joey was doing, at the instruction of the coaching staff. Then they changed tact and went intermediate, likely on routes to target safeties as well, which had the same effect but with a higher completion percentage.

I think Joey has a lot of freedom on any given play but you don't keep taking those shots drive after drive if a coach doesn't want it.

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Re: Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

Unread post by ericsaid » Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:00 pm

311neers wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 2:01 pm
ericsaid wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:15 pm
Black Saturday wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 5:41 am
The pick 6 Saturday had a lot to do with the quick pressure, his confidence told him he could make the throw, other options take a safety, not sure from the angle the pressure in his face came from would allow him to throw it away. All of this had to be processed within tenths of a second. Anyway he can be coached on what to do if there is a next time similar situation.

He sort of reminds me of Sam Hartman.
I don't usually do this but that seems like it was on Ponce. We checked into that play late, and it ends up being two out routes against man coverage with bracket coverage from the safety. He didn't have any option on that play call and a time out should've been called, in my opinion. Didn't look good from the moment ECU made their late shift.
Yup, saw it coming before the snap. Run, run, run, punt. Live another day. Especially after we picked up 4 on the 1st down. 50/50 ball wasn't it either on 2nd down, that was almost picked too, unless we were praying for PI. Never a good feeling that you know it's a pick 6 before you release the ball.
The 50/50 ball was probably an attempt to get a safety out of the box to get Noel a running lane on 3rd down. Then when ECU sent a blitz with single high safety on 3rd down, or showed that, Ponce checked into the out routes, which ECU anticipated and obviously went man with single high safety, playing high and tight across the board. Coaches should've seen that shift and called a time out.

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Re: Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

Unread post by asumba95 » Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:22 pm

just my .02 cents. Seems to have good ability to go thru progressions (when he has time) and isn't afraid to tuck and run when necessary. I feel he's much more adept at the short/medium throws as his arm strength isn't there to throw the deep ball with zip. Saw a number of his deep passes that were pretty "high arching" which gave the db time to adjust and make a play on the ball. Appears very heady and likes to have fun playing the game, which is a definite plus.

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Re: Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

Unread post by t4pizza » Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:31 pm

ericsaid wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 3:58 pm
t4pizza wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:48 pm
I could be entirely wrong here but I think that on each play, there are multiple reads that Joey can make and decide where he wants to go with the ball. He seems to decide presnap who he is going to based on the look he gets. I think the reason we went with the intermediate play in the second half is most likely because it was pointed out to Joey how often those intermediate routes are open as he is forcing the 50/50 ball. Again, I could be wrong but I doubt that when a play is called, that there is only one option to throw it to. That just doesn't make any sense to me.
I doubt he would just force the 50/50 ball based on what we've seen. And if the coaches were seeing the intermediate routes open earlier, surely someone told him on the sideline when he called up to Ponce? No? I think the game plan was to take deep shots, even if you don't connect, to get the running game going. ECU's run defense was really good against Michigan and Marshall so you had to soften them up by showing a willingness to attack deep and that's what Joey was doing, at the instruction of the coaching staff. Then they changed tact and went intermediate, likely on routes to target safeties as well, which had the same effect but with a higher completion percentage.

I think Joey has a lot of freedom on any given play but you don't keep taking those shots drive after drive if a coach doesn't want it.
I agree that the 50/50 is part of the play but all I am saying is that there are other potential passes he could be making on every play as well. I haven't rewatched the game but my memory is that on that 50/50 pass out of the endzone on second down (play before the int) there was an open Tight End (could be another play that I am thinking of), there is no way that he is simply told throw the 50/50 on this play even if you have a wide open receiver somewhere else on the field. I just don't buy that. I think the play is called and one of the options is the 50/50 and we have a true gunslinger that likes his odds with those passes so he airs it out. It is up to the coaches to let him know that he has other options and I think that is exactly what happened and why he used the intermediate pass more often later in the game. Until a coach speaks directly to this, we are both just guessing. I just can't believe we would ever run a pass play where our qb only has 1 option with the ball, especially if that option is 30 yards down the field.

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Re: Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

Unread post by ericsaid » Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:24 pm

Thought I'd bring this thread back to life from after Gardner-Webb and UNC.

The answer is yes. Jose, er Joey, is officially, JOEY DIMES.

Give it up.

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Re: Jose. Best App passing qb in recent memory?

Unread post by ericsaid » Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:26 pm

t4pizza wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:31 pm
ericsaid wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 3:58 pm
t4pizza wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:48 pm
I could be entirely wrong here but I think that on each play, there are multiple reads that Joey can make and decide where he wants to go with the ball. He seems to decide presnap who he is going to based on the look he gets. I think the reason we went with the intermediate play in the second half is most likely because it was pointed out to Joey how often those intermediate routes are open as he is forcing the 50/50 ball. Again, I could be wrong but I doubt that when a play is called, that there is only one option to throw it to. That just doesn't make any sense to me.
I doubt he would just force the 50/50 ball based on what we've seen. And if the coaches were seeing the intermediate routes open earlier, surely someone told him on the sideline when he called up to Ponce? No? I think the game plan was to take deep shots, even if you don't connect, to get the running game going. ECU's run defense was really good against Michigan and Marshall so you had to soften them up by showing a willingness to attack deep and that's what Joey was doing, at the instruction of the coaching staff. Then they changed tact and went intermediate, likely on routes to target safeties as well, which had the same effect but with a higher completion percentage.

I think Joey has a lot of freedom on any given play but you don't keep taking those shots drive after drive if a coach doesn't want it.
I agree that the 50/50 is part of the play but all I am saying is that there are other potential passes he could be making on every play as well. I haven't rewatched the game but my memory is that on that 50/50 pass out of the endzone on second down (play before the int) there was an open Tight End (could be another play that I am thinking of), there is no way that he is simply told throw the 50/50 on this play even if you have a wide open receiver somewhere else on the field. I just don't buy that. I think the play is called and one of the options is the 50/50 and we have a true gunslinger that likes his odds with those passes so he airs it out. It is up to the coaches to let him know that he has other options and I think that is exactly what happened and why he used the intermediate pass more often later in the game. Until a coach speaks directly to this, we are both just guessing. I just can't believe we would ever run a pass play where our qb only has 1 option with the ball, especially if that option is 30 yards down the field.
The end of regulation against JMU shows that this is indeed what they ask him to do.

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