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2022 App State Coaching Updates

AppSt94
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Re: 2022 App State Coaching Updates

Unread post by AppSt94 » Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:09 pm

EastHallApp wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:06 pm
AppSt94 wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:01 pm
Third down conversion rate was the lowest since joining the FBS.
Awful lot of runs on 3rd and medium-to-long that seemed designed to position us to go for a more manageable 4th down.
Just playing devils advocate because I don’t have a clue what Clark and Ponce were thinking, but runs like that make sense if the defense is playing for the pass. Run the ball and maybe get a huge gainer or get enough to make 4th down manageable.

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Re: 2022 App State Coaching Updates

Unread post by AtlAppMan » Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:18 pm

How many times did we have a 3 and short or 4th and short (1-2 yrds) and could not get first down? I don't have facts but it definitely seemed like we struggled a lot in those situations.

Is there such a stat maintained?

To me you should have a high rate of success/conversion in those situations.

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Re: 2022 App State Coaching Updates

Unread post by AppSt94 » Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:40 pm

AtlAppMan wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:18 pm
How many times did we have a 3 and short or 4th and short (1-2 yrds) and could not get first down? I don't have facts but it definitely seemed like we struggled a lot in those situations.

Is there such a stat maintained?

To me you should have a high rate of success/conversion in those situations.
We converted on 36% of our total third downs. We converted on 65% of our 4th down conversion attempts.

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Re: 2022 App State Coaching Updates

Unread post by AppinVA » Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:07 pm

I would be interested in if there is a stat for third down conversions on our side of the 50, where we wouldn’t be likely to go for it on fourth down. Not trying to point out anything, just curious.
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Re: 2022 App State Coaching Updates

Unread post by AtlAppMan » Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:20 pm

AppSt94 wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:40 pm
AtlAppMan wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:18 pm
How many times did we have a 3 and short or 4th and short (1-2 yrds) and could not get first down? I don't have facts but it definitely seemed like we struggled a lot in those situations.

Is there such a stat maintained?

To me you should have a high rate of success/conversion in those situations.
We converted on 36% of our total third downs. We converted on 65% of our 4th down conversion attempts.
Thanks for info but I think we have to look a bit deeper into those stats, especially the 3rd down. I know the conversion rate goes down as yardage increases (1 yrd vs 7-8 yrds vs over 10 yrds). I also agree that IF we are trying to make a 3rd and 7 into 4th and 1/2 we may call a different play than trying to convert 3rd and 7 into 1st down. There are several layers of statistics rolled into those many scenarios.

However, I remember scratching my head several times when we were on our 20-30 and called a run play with 3rd and manageable vs pass scenario with the QB and receivers we had this year.

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Re: 2022 App State Coaching Updates

Unread post by AppSt94 » Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:27 pm

AtlAppMan wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:20 pm
AppSt94 wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:40 pm
AtlAppMan wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:18 pm
How many times did we have a 3 and short or 4th and short (1-2 yrds) and could not get first down? I don't have facts but it definitely seemed like we struggled a lot in those situations.

Is there such a stat maintained?

To me you should have a high rate of success/conversion in those situations.
We converted on 36% of our total third downs. We converted on 65% of our 4th down conversion attempts.
Thanks for info but I think we have to look a bit deeper into those stats, especially the 3rd down. I know the conversion rate goes down as yardage increases (1 yrd vs 7-8 yrds vs over 10 yrds). I also agree that IF we are trying to make a 3rd and 7 into 4th and 1/2 we may call a different play than trying to convert 3rd and 7 into 1st down. There are several layers of statistics rolled into those many scenarios.

However, I remember scratching my head several times when we were on our 20-30 and called a run play with 3rd and manageable vs pass scenario with the QB and receivers we had this year.
I did the math a few weeks ago on 3 and 3 or less. I’ll see if I can find it. Again, I don’t have any insight on what Frank called, but there could be instances of a pass play being called with a check to a run given the defensive alignment.

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Re: 2022 App State Coaching Updates

Unread post by appstate5 » Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:34 pm

Even 3rd and long I would take a shot downfield and try for a pass interference penalty versus a run up the middle

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Re: 2022 App State Coaching Updates

Unread post by AppWyo » Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:52 pm

Maybe we went for it on 4th down more this season to try and rip the competitions' heart out and eat it. Just like Georgia Southern did back when they were option all the time. "Alright, we stopped them, 3rd and out, wait, what, they are going for it on 4th down? Noooooooo!"

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Re: 2022 App State Coaching Updates

Unread post by spacemonkey » Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:54 pm

appstate5 wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:34 pm
Even 3rd and long I would take a shot downfield and try for a pass interference penalty versus a run up the middle
On 3rd and long - I would have a play that sent at least one person long and if no other route was open, I would tell the quarterback to sling it. Assuming I had a quarterback with an arm like Brice. The other receivers would know to go play defense incase of an interception. I would hang up a long high hang time 50/50 ball. If it is intercepted it would be as good if not better than a punt.

I don't see coaches do it....so...I am probably wrong.

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Re: 2022 App State Coaching Updates

Unread post by AppStateNews » Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:24 pm

spacemonkey wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:54 pm
appstate5 wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:34 pm
Even 3rd and long I would take a shot downfield and try for a pass interference penalty versus a run up the middle
On 3rd and long - I would have a play that sent at least one person long and if no other route was open, I would tell the quarterback to sling it. Assuming I had a quarterback with an arm like Brice. The other receivers would know to go play defense incase of an interception. I would hang up a long high hang time 50/50 ball. If it is intercepted it would be as good if not better than a punt.

I don't see coaches do it....so...I am probably wrong.
Majority of our third down plays come with a check. If the defense is in a certain look, we run the play quick. If they aren't, we look to the sideline and coaches decide if it's in a situation where we can go for it in 4th down. It all comes down to the look the defense shows and confidence to go against that look.
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Re: 2022 App State Coaching Updates

Unread post by bigdaddyg » Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:10 am

It’s evidently easier said than done but I don’t get why more teams don’t try to implement a big blocking fullback for short yardage situations especially. That system seemed to work for years but has pretty much died out. You would think most teams have at least one pretty athletic 250 guy who also plays line. We used Spurlin on more than a few offensive plays. Just curious

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Re: 2022 App State Coaching Updates

Unread post by Yosef84 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:24 am

I'm not saying that 3rd down conversions weren't a problem. That is definitely an area for improvement next year, but I didn't see them as the biggest reason for the games we lost. I was much more frustrated with our struggles in STOPPING third down conversions....even on 3rd and long. I don't think I've ever seen App struggle to get off the field on D quite this way. Overall, our D was a strength so I'm certainly not trying to blame them, but with the athletes we had in the defensive secondary, there's no reason to give up 3rd and long as much as we did. I'm sure that Dale and company are already working on the schemes to address it. We did seem to play more gunslinger QBs this year than we have in the past.

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Re: 2022 App State Coaching Updates

Unread post by AtlAppMan » Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:16 am

bigdaddyg wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:10 am
It’s evidently easier said than done but I don’t get why more teams don’t try to implement a big blocking fullback for short yardage situations especially. That system seemed to work for years but has pretty much died out. You would think most teams have at least one pretty athletic 250 guy who also plays line. We used Spurlin on more than a few offensive plays. Just curious
You mean what Georgia did in the CFP Championship game when they put one of their BIG linemen in the backfield to block? Yea, that seemed to work pretty well as he mowed down his blocker and created a hole for the running back against Alabama.

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Re: 2022 App State Coaching Updates

Unread post by AppStateNews » Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:55 am

bigdaddyg wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:10 am
It’s evidently easier said than done but I don’t get why more teams don’t try to implement a big blocking fullback for short yardage situations especially. That system seemed to work for years but has pretty much died out. You would think most teams have at least one pretty athletic 250 guy who also plays line. We used Spurlin on more than a few offensive plays. Just curious
Blocking as a fullback isn't as easy as getting in front of someone. The technique to be effective at a high level is equivalent of being a TE. We use our TEs as more of an H Back role for this reason -- we get guys that can block as well as catch and run.

Having an athlete at 250 pounds isn't the hard part. The hard part is getting that said athlete to learn how to block AND play another position.

Most offenses are now a type of spread, so you aren't going to "waste" (for a lack of a better term) a scholarship on a guy specifically to block (unless that fits your scheme). P5 schools have the luxury of getting the best of the best athletes with size.
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Re: 2022 App State Coaching Updates

Unread post by mike87 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:17 pm

AppStateNews wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:55 am
bigdaddyg wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:10 am
It’s evidently easier said than done but I don’t get why more teams don’t try to implement a big blocking fullback for short yardage situations especially. That system seemed to work for years but has pretty much died out. You would think most teams have at least one pretty athletic 250 guy who also plays line. We used Spurlin on more than a few offensive plays. Just curious
Blocking as a fullback isn't as easy as getting in front of someone. The technique to be effective at a high level is equivalent of being a TE. We use our TEs as more of an H Back role for this reason -- we get guys that can block as well as catch and run.

Having an athlete at 250 pounds isn't the hard part. The hard part is getting that said athlete to learn how to block AND play another position.

Most offenses are now a type of spread, so you aren't going to "waste" (for a lack of a better term) a scholarship on a guy specifically to block (unless that fits your scheme). P5 schools have the luxury of getting the best of the best athletes with size.
i'd agree with this except when you are looking for 1 yard or less. Then I think the laws of physics take over. Mass is mass and it's hard to stop. I've questioned using Noel over Cam in similar short yardage situations. A big man with momentum gets the short yardage.

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Re: 2022 App State Coaching Updates

Unread post by AppSt94 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:18 pm

mike87 wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:17 pm
AppStateNews wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:55 am
bigdaddyg wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:10 am
It’s evidently easier said than done but I don’t get why more teams don’t try to implement a big blocking fullback for short yardage situations especially. That system seemed to work for years but has pretty much died out. You would think most teams have at least one pretty athletic 250 guy who also plays line. We used Spurlin on more than a few offensive plays. Just curious
Blocking as a fullback isn't as easy as getting in front of someone. The technique to be effective at a high level is equivalent of being a TE. We use our TEs as more of an H Back role for this reason -- we get guys that can block as well as catch and run.

Having an athlete at 250 pounds isn't the hard part. The hard part is getting that said athlete to learn how to block AND play another position.

Most offenses are now a type of spread, so you aren't going to "waste" (for a lack of a better term) a scholarship on a guy specifically to block (unless that fits your scheme). P5 schools have the luxury of getting the best of the best athletes with size.
i'd agree with this except when you are looking for 1 yard or less. Then I think the laws of physics take over. Mass is mass and it's hard to stop. I've questioned using Noel over Cam in similar short yardage situations. A big man with momentum gets the short yardage.
Noel converted short yardage at the same rate as Cam.

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Re: 2022 App State Coaching Updates

Unread post by WASU 93 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:23 pm

Yosef84 wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:24 am
I'm not saying that 3rd down conversions weren't a problem. That is definitely an area for improvement next year, but I didn't see them as the biggest reason for the games we lost. I was much more frustrated with our struggles in STOPPING third down conversions....even on 3rd and long. I don't think I've ever seen App struggle to get off the field on D quite this way. Overall, our D was a strength so I'm certainly not trying to blame them, but with the athletes we had in the defensive secondary, there's no reason to give up 3rd and long as much as we did. I'm sure that Dale and company are already working on the schemes to address it. We did seem to play more gunslinger QBs this year than we have in the past.
Perhaps we struggled at some key times, but we were #22 in the nation in 3rd Down Stop Percentage. Opponents converted 68 of 199 attempts (34.2% conversion ratio). Houston was #1 in the nation at 25.7%, but the #10 Team was Notre Dame at 32.1%, so we were only 4 more stops away from being in the Top 10 in the nation.

We were tied with Wake Forest at 14th in the nation for 4th down stops at 37.5% Opponents converted 9 of 24 against us,

Our biggest struggle in the losses was Turnover Margin and the inability to create turnovers.
App. St. 1 Turnover vs. Miami 0 TO's
App St. 4 TO's vs. Louisiana 1 TO
App St. 1 TO vs. Louisiana O TO's
App St. 4 TO's vs WKU 1 TO

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Re: 2022 App State Coaching Updates

Unread post by teaasu76 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:26 pm

Is there a way we can take the posts about 3rd and 4th down conversions to another thread? I come to this thread expecting to see updates on the coaching staff.

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Re: 2022 App State Coaching Updates

Unread post by AppStateNews » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:27 pm

mike87 wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:17 pm
AppStateNews wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:55 am
bigdaddyg wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:10 am
It’s evidently easier said than done but I don’t get why more teams don’t try to implement a big blocking fullback for short yardage situations especially. That system seemed to work for years but has pretty much died out. You would think most teams have at least one pretty athletic 250 guy who also plays line. We used Spurlin on more than a few offensive plays. Just curious
Blocking as a fullback isn't as easy as getting in front of someone. The technique to be effective at a high level is equivalent of being a TE. We use our TEs as more of an H Back role for this reason -- we get guys that can block as well as catch and run.

Having an athlete at 250 pounds isn't the hard part. The hard part is getting that said athlete to learn how to block AND play another position.

Most offenses are now a type of spread, so you aren't going to "waste" (for a lack of a better term) a scholarship on a guy specifically to block (unless that fits your scheme). P5 schools have the luxury of getting the best of the best athletes with size.
i'd agree with this except when you are looking for 1 yard or less. Then I think the laws of physics take over. Mass is mass and it's hard to stop. I've questioned using Noel over Cam in similar short yardage situations. A big man with momentum gets the short yardage.
While true mass is mass -- what happens if we put in a DT as the fullback, he misses the block due to not knowing how to block properly and now the RB has to take on two? Two large bodies is more than one. Or, we give the ball to the DT to get the one yard but he fumbles since he's not used to ball security?

I will take a smaller TE/H back that knows how to block in every scenario over a guy just because he's big. And, obviously this is how most coaches feel as well since it's pretty rare to get a two way player.
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Re: 2022 App State Coaching Updates

Unread post by WASU 93 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:37 pm

AppStateNews wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:27 pm
mike87 wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:17 pm
AppStateNews wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:55 am
bigdaddyg wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:10 am
It’s evidently easier said than done but I don’t get why more teams don’t try to implement a big blocking fullback for short yardage situations especially. That system seemed to work for years but has pretty much died out. You would think most teams have at least one pretty athletic 250 guy who also plays line. We used Spurlin on more than a few offensive plays. Just curious
Blocking as a fullback isn't as easy as getting in front of someone. The technique to be effective at a high level is equivalent of being a TE. We use our TEs as more of an H Back role for this reason -- we get guys that can block as well as catch and run.

Having an athlete at 250 pounds isn't the hard part. The hard part is getting that said athlete to learn how to block AND play another position.

Most offenses are now a type of spread, so you aren't going to "waste" (for a lack of a better term) a scholarship on a guy specifically to block (unless that fits your scheme). P5 schools have the luxury of getting the best of the best athletes with size.
i'd agree with this except when you are looking for 1 yard or less. Then I think the laws of physics take over. Mass is mass and it's hard to stop. I've questioned using Noel over Cam in similar short yardage situations. A big man with momentum gets the short yardage.
While true mass is mass -- what happens if we put in a DT as the fullback, he misses the block due to not knowing how to block properly and now the RB has to take on two? Two large bodies is more than one. Or, we give the ball to the DT to get the one yard but he fumbles since he's not used to ball security?

I will take a smaller TE/H back that knows how to block in every scenario over a guy just because he's big. And, obviously this is how most coaches feel as well since it's pretty rare to get a two way player.
Do you think college coaches are also (perhaps overthinking) trying no to be predictable with a jumbo package? By staying with base personnel, the defense can't substitute with the short yardage package up front. This is due to the offense having the ability to run any play vs. just the short yardage package. At the goal line, the field limits the options, so it's more prevalent to put in a jumbo package.
I think that's where we were a lot this year with Noel.
Obviously, having the element of a Running QB/Option Play, misdirection/counter plays or RB's in the passing game as standard elements could improve on our success with a base package in these situations.

If we are going to just line up and run short yardage, I would put Castle in over Peoples and Noel.

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