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Please defend NIL

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Please defend NIL

Unread post by bigdaddyg » Sat May 21, 2022 2:46 pm

Probably an old man rant/perspective but someone please change my mind that NIL is actually a positive and good thing for college sports. Saban/Jimbo bull crap aside I’d love to know how this deal is really good for college athletics. I’m all for a stipend or even a grant for college athletes who can’t afford to be like other students who have accessible spending money but when it comes down to an 18 year old college football player pulling down a million bucks or when some shady business throws big bucks at an entire roster it starts to smell bad. Who didn’t see this garbage coming? I’m open minded so one of you who thinks that college athletes “deserve “ some big piece of the pie please change my mind. By the same token I think it’s insane that a college football coach pulls down $5-$10m per or that schools rake in millions for a sports. It’s been shady for decades but now it’s open and legal.

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Re: Please defend NIL

Unread post by T-Dog » Sat May 21, 2022 3:33 pm

Because God bless young athletes who can use their ability and hard work to make money after decades of an illegal amateurism racket.

It's not the athletes' fault that the NCAA spent millions on a lawsuit defending a system that would declare players ineligible for having monetized YouTube/Twitch accounts and pay back $5 for an impermissible extra meal, only to get wrecked by all nine justices of the SCOTUS. And then the NCAA failed to come up with an NIL system leading to an unregulated landscape. The NCAA and its administrators failed to have a system in place that would regulate it, although I suspect we'll have something in the near future, be it from the NCAA or each individual conference.

The players deserve every dime they can get. Pre-teen Twitch streamers can bring in millions playing Elden Ring all day. College athletes deserve money for playing at a school, having fans pay to watch them and buy their jersey.

If you want pure amateurism, go to the local park and watch a pick-up game, or go somewhere that doesn't charge admission.

And I'm tired of hearing about how every change to college athletics is a bad thing. It's a broken record that repeats over and over, year after year with coaches whining about it. There's a new boogeyman every year. This year, it's NIL.

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Re: Please defend NIL

Unread post by AppStFan1 » Sat May 21, 2022 4:16 pm

T-Dog wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 3:33 pm
Because God bless young athletes who can use their ability and hard work to make money after decades of an illegal amateurism racket.

It's not the athletes' fault that the NCAA spent millions on a lawsuit defending a system that would declare players ineligible for having monetized YouTube/Twitch accounts and pay back $5 for an impermissible extra meal, only to get wrecked by all nine justices of the SCOTUS. And then the NCAA failed to come up with an NIL system leading to an unregulated landscape. The NCAA and its administrators failed to have a system in place that would regulate it, although I suspect we'll have something in the near future, be it from the NCAA or each individual conference.

The players deserve every dime they can get. Pre-teen Twitch streamers can bring in millions playing Elden Ring all day. College athletes deserve money for playing at a school, having fans pay to watch them and buy their jersey.

If you want pure amateurism, go to the local park and watch a pick-up game, or go somewhere that doesn't charge admission.

And I'm tired of hearing about how every change to college athletics is a bad thing. It's a broken record that repeats over and over, year after year with coaches whining about it. There's a new boogeyman every year. This year, it's NIL.
I agree with what you said and think some of the stuff the NCAA punished athletes for is stupid. I think the fact that an athlete was told they could not monetize their social media just like any normal student or could not make money off jersey sales, etc when their name is on it was wrong and stupid.

My issue with what is going on now is that it is the wild west and the gap between P5 and G5 has gotten bigger than it was before. Hopefully we see changes that come up with a fair system for all instead of all this chaos.

A serious question here on the format changing. If we go to players having contracts and no longer tie scholarships to playing football eventually could we see Title IX go away? Perhaps a case where coaches literally start cutting players in high numbers and essentially cleaning out the roster every year by cutting players who aren't contributing? From our standpoint it is a good thing but a lot of players would be out of a spot and I wonder if some coaches would abandon some players too early that would have panned out?

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Re: Please defend NIL

Unread post by McLeansvilleAppFan » Sat May 21, 2022 6:40 pm

bigdaddyg wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 2:46 pm
Probably an old man rant/perspective but someone please change my mind that NIL is actually a positive and good thing for college sports. Saban/Jimbo bull crap aside I’d love to know how this deal is really good for college athletics. I’m all for a stipend or even a grant for college athletes who can’t afford to be like other students who have accessible spending money but when it comes down to an 18 year old college football player pulling down a million bucks or when some shady business throws big bucks at an entire roster it starts to smell bad. Who didn’t see this garbage coming? I’m open minded so one of you who thinks that college athletes “deserve “ some big piece of the pie please change my mind. By the same token I think it’s insane that a college football coach pulls down $5-$10m per or that schools rake in millions for a sports. It’s been shady for decades but now it’s open and legal.
Given the amount of money going into sports and the fact coaches and AD office staff are making the money they are making then I have no problem with the athletes making their share. If coaches made closer to professor salaries and the extra revenue went mostly back to academic support and campus-wide scholarships for all students then I might take a dimmer view on the athletics pay or at least want some serious limits, but I go to see the players play regardless of the level. As much as I have loved what Sparky, Jerry, Scott, Eli and Shawn did and continue to do I am there to watch players play. That is true for any level from middle school to pro.

It likely will make a wider gulf between the top Prig 5 and the lower Prig 5 and Great 5, but I can't use that as an excuse to allow what I see as exploitation of the student athletes. And I will mourn the loss of the amateurism but be happy the people putting their long term health on the line for my entertainment have a better chance of getting their cut of the pie that they are helping create.
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Re: Please defend NIL

Unread post by bigdaddyg » Sat May 21, 2022 8:16 pm

This is not meant as a disagreement with any of the above arguments but when I read words like, fair and exploited I kind of want to throw up. What exactly is fair? App State, like many other schools have athletes who, in their entire 4 years never or rarely get on the field or court. We have many backup football players who never play except maybe some end of game situations in blowouts. Are those athletes exploited? Is anyone clamoring to purchase the jersey of our 3rd or 4th string QB? The entire NIL deal really affects what, about 1% of the athletes? I hate to use phrases like,”nobody forced you to play” or “the scholarship is worth X amount of money “ but both are true.

I absolutely agree about the amount of money the coaches and athletic departments make- it’s all screwed up. Personally I think that any 18 year old should be allowed to jump straight to the pros. If the top 1% wants to give it a shot go for it. If the NCAA wants to clean it up then don’t sell out to video games or other revenue streams.

I’ve always agreed that athletes deserve some form of stipend but keep it above board and let individuals apply for added aid where applicable.

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Re: Please defend NIL

Unread post by McLeansvilleAppFan » Sat May 21, 2022 8:33 pm

bigdaddyg wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 8:16 pm
This is not meant as a disagreement with any of the above arguments but when I read words like, fair and exploited I kind of want to throw up. What exactly is fair? App State, like many other schools have athletes who, in their entire 4 years never or rarely get on the field or court. We have many backup football players who never play except maybe some end of game situations in blowouts. Are those athletes exploited? Is anyone clamoring to purchase the jersey of our 3rd or 4th string QB? The entire NIL deal really affects what, about 1% of the athletes? I hate to use phrases like,”nobody forced you to play” or “the scholarship is worth X amount of money “ but both are true.

I absolutely agree about the amount of money the coaches and athletic departments make- it’s all screwed up. Personally I think that any 18 year old should be allowed to jump straight to the pros. If the top 1% wants to give it a shot go for it. If the NCAA wants to clean it up then don’t sell out to video games or other revenue streams.

I’ve always agreed that athletes deserve some form of stipend but keep it above board and let individuals apply for added aid where applicable.
Much like porn, fairness is hard to define, but I know it when I see it and I know it when I see things are not fair. And what is fair is going to be different for every athlete, just as it is in the pro levels. And just as it is between the pro leagues. Major League Lacrosse is not drawing salaries of NFL, and QBs generally make more than lineman. Fairness does not mean equal.

I do agree that every pro sport should have a farm system like baseball. If someone wants to go that route or straight to the majors then more power to them. If you want to go to college and get a degree there will be scholarships for that and a chance to make some money along the way with NIL. I am not really in favor of schools paying athletes directly since that is going to be on the backs of students paying fees and I also don't think that is fair. But the athletes deserve a cut of the TV money and video game money. My suggestion is coaches and ADs can take a pay cut and still live VERY well in just about every city, town, and community that has college football and use that money for athletes. And maybe just outlaw student athletic fees altogether. Let athletics be self-funded and use the money for coaches and players and both can look for a few other NIL options along the way with some regulations. Colleges can offer a discount for admission if students want to pay voluntary fees much like it is voluntary that I purchase a ticket or not as an alumnus.
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Re: Please defend NIL

Unread post by T-Dog » Sat May 21, 2022 8:47 pm

More than 1% of D1 athletes are getting NIL deals. They're just not getting the giant money headline deals everyone sees. Blue Deer Cookie in Boone and the Boone Area Chamber of Commerce got into NILs. App had dozens of NIL deals last summer before a single ball was kicked in competition. I bet there's some volleyball players who got some very nice NIL deals because they have big Instagram followings. There's an Elon backup offensive lineman with a successful TikTok (more than a million followers) who has NIL deals.

I would say every student athlete who has to get up at 5 a.m. for "optional workouts" in the offseason is exploited. Regardless of whether they make the university a dime or not, because they were brought to App State for the No. 1 purpose above all else of scoring more points or finishing higher in the stadings than the other teams.

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Re: Please defend NIL

Unread post by AppSt94 » Sat May 21, 2022 10:03 pm

T-Dog wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 8:47 pm
More than 1% of D1 athletes are getting NIL deals. They're just not getting the giant money headline deals everyone sees. Blue Deer Cookie in Boone and the Boone Area Chamber of Commerce got into NILs. App had dozens of NIL deals last summer before a single ball was kicked in competition. I bet there's some volleyball players who got some very nice NIL deals because they have big Instagram followings. There's an Elon backup offensive lineman with a successful TikTok (more than a million followers) who has NIL deals.

I would say every student athlete who has to get up at 5 a.m. for "optional workouts" in the offseason is exploited. Regardless of whether they make the university a dime or not, because they were brought to App State for the No. 1 purpose above all else of scoring more points or finishing higher in the stadings than the other teams.
Are you serious? How does getting up for a workout amount to exploitation?

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Re: Please defend NIL

Unread post by appst89 » Sun May 22, 2022 6:31 am

No kid should be denied the ability to make money for their abilities. NIL is no longer about that. You can’t give an $8 million dollar deal to an incoming freshman who has never taken a snap and claim you are paying him for his abilities. It will be the end of college sports as we have known it. Some will see that as a good thing, some won’t.

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Re: Please defend NIL

Unread post by bigdaddyg » Sun May 22, 2022 6:42 am

AppSt94 wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 10:03 pm
T-Dog wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 8:47 pm
More than 1% of D1 athletes are getting NIL deals. They're just not getting the giant money headline deals everyone sees. Blue Deer Cookie in Boone and the Boone Area Chamber of Commerce got into NILs. App had dozens of NIL deals last summer before a single ball was kicked in competition. I bet there's some volleyball players who got some very nice NIL deals because they have big Instagram followings. There's an Elon backup offensive lineman with a successful TikTok (more than a million followers) who has NIL deals.

I would say every student athlete who has to get up at 5 a.m. for "optional workouts" in the offseason is exploited. Regardless of whether they make the university a dime or not, because they were brought to App State for the No. 1 purpose above all else of scoring more points or finishing higher in the stadings than the other teams.
Are you serious? How does getting up for a workout amount to exploitation?
I totally agree with that? Conditioning and workouts are common and part of the deal. My two youngest boys played high school baseball and every year the team had “voluntary off-season workouts “. They knew that this meant your tail better be there.

A huge percentage of the population wishes that they were compensated more for what they either contribute or believe they contribute to an organization. Some are probably vastly underpaid and some are probably vastly overpaid. Fans spend lots of money to come watch a TEAM play a sport and while a few star players get the limelight it’s a TEAM effort. The amount of money a college athlete “deserves “ is so subjective. While many probably “deserve “ some added compensation to say that any of them are exploited is a reach.

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Re: Please defend NIL

Unread post by BambooRdApp » Sun May 22, 2022 7:33 am

It is basic simple supply and demand economics given that, as of now, it somewhat of a free market without much govt (NCAA) intervention at the moment...from a personal perspective, I would like to see something like a 1 year sitting out penalty if you transfer to new school... maybe it would curtail something like the kid from Pitt transferring to USC due to his "agent" getting him more money. This is for purely selfish reasons as I like see to most kids finish where they started....and I totally realize this can be a detriment to the player earning their full potential...I just like to see the kids stay for 3 or 4 years.
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Re: Please defend NIL

Unread post by AppSt94 » Sun May 22, 2022 7:53 am

BambooRdApp wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 7:33 am
It is basic simple supply and demand economics given that, as of now, it somewhat of a free market without much govt (NCAA) intervention at the moment...from a personal perspective, I would like to see something like a 1 year sitting out penalty if you transfer to new school... maybe it would curtail something like the kid from Pitt transferring to USC due to his "agent" getting him more money. This is for purely selfish reasons as I like see to most kids finish where they started....and I totally realize this can be a detriment to the player earning their full potential...I just like to see the kids stay for 3 or 4 years.
The old rules required you to sit a year, unless you were going down a division. I don’t mind the new rule that allows you to transfer once with immediate availability. Regular students transfer out of original schools all the time for various reasons and it reasonable to think that athletes don’t always transfer for athletic reasons. Some schools aren’t good fits. And with CoVid restricting visits and in person interaction, you are seeing a bigger number of kids figuring out that schools aren’t for them. I think that for the most part, NIL is a good thing and works within the framework of intent. Too often, the focus is on the outliers and people see them as the norm.

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Re: Please defend NIL

Unread post by Stonewall » Sun May 22, 2022 8:11 am

Next up:No academic requirements.

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Re: Please defend NIL

Unread post by Saint3333 » Sun May 22, 2022 9:15 am

The irony of capitalist against the NIL and the socialist for it isn’t lost on me.

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Re: Please defend NIL

Unread post by AppSt94 » Sun May 22, 2022 9:39 am

Saint3333 wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 9:15 am
The irony of capitalist against the NIL and the socialist for it isn’t lost on me.
Agree. I was thinking the same thing.

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Re: Please defend NIL

Unread post by McLeansvilleAppFan » Sun May 22, 2022 10:19 am

AppSt94 wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 9:39 am
Saint3333 wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 9:15 am
The irony of capitalist against the NIL and the socialist for it isn’t lost on me.
Agree. I was thinking the same thing.
I don't think it is irony. It is about looking at the world in a way that produces outcomes that lead to a world-view closer to what one would like. (And I am not a big "the ends justify the means type person.) I am not a fan of all the money in college athletics, but it is there and has been for a long time but has really ramped up the last few decades. If the money is there it needs to go to ALL of those that earn it and hopefully can be done in a way that does not make the whole system implode, but if that happens maybe what takes its place will be a better system.

As a socialist I am not against anyone making money. What I am against is someone not getting their fair share.
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Re: Please defend NIL

Unread post by AppSt94 » Sun May 22, 2022 11:49 am

McLeansvilleAppFan wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 10:19 am
AppSt94 wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 9:39 am
Saint3333 wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 9:15 am
The irony of capitalist against the NIL and the socialist for it isn’t lost on me.
Agree. I was thinking the same thing.
I don't think it is irony. It is about looking at the world in a way that produces outcomes that lead to a world-view closer to what one would like. (And I am not a big "the ends justify the means type person.) I am not a fan of all the money in college athletics, but it is there and has been for a long time but has really ramped up the last few decades. If the money is there it needs to go to ALL of those that earn it and hopefully can be done in a way that does not make the whole system implode, but if that happens maybe what takes its place will be a better system.

As a socialist I am not against anyone making money. What I am against is someone not getting their fair share.
How do you define fair share? Our OL gets free cookies from Blue Deer Cookies, the Texas RB got a Lamborghini. There is no such thing as fair share.

And to further the point. These NIL compensations aren’t coming from the revenue coffers of the NCAA. They are coming, in large part, from boosters that want to attract the best players possible to ensure that they can leave the stadiums and arenas happy with a W.

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Re: Please defend NIL

Unread post by McLeansvilleAppFan » Sun May 22, 2022 12:50 pm

AppSt94 wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 11:49 am
McLeansvilleAppFan wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 10:19 am
AppSt94 wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 9:39 am
Saint3333 wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 9:15 am
The irony of capitalist against the NIL and the socialist for it isn’t lost on me.
Agree. I was thinking the same thing.
I don't think it is irony. It is about looking at the world in a way that produces outcomes that lead to a world-view closer to what one would like. (And I am not a big "the ends justify the means type person.) I am not a fan of all the money in college athletics, but it is there and has been for a long time but has really ramped up the last few decades. If the money is there it needs to go to ALL of those that earn it and hopefully can be done in a way that does not make the whole system implode, but if that happens maybe what takes its place will be a better system.

As a socialist I am not against anyone making money. What I am against is someone not getting their fair share.
How do you define fair share? Our OL gets free cookies from Blue Deer Cookies, the Texas RB got a Lamborghini. There is no such thing as fair share.

And to further the point. These NIL compensations aren’t coming from the revenue coffers of the NCAA. They are coming, in large part, from boosters that want to attract the best players possible to ensure that they can leave the stadiums and arenas happy with a W.
I am aware of where the money is coming from. It is not idea but better than nothing at all for the athletes. And I wish there was more revenue sharing across all the schools but there is not.

I am not crazy about the situation, but it is better and moving in the "more fair" direction for athletes. Will there be some bad actors in all of this? Sure, but I am not willing to toss out the possibility of an athlete making some money off NIL when coaches and AD are making what they make. For me there is not much more to discuss about the general idea, though some limits could be in place. Limits could inlude a "tax" or a "fee" on excessive NIL payments. I do think if NIL income is large enough a school should not give a scholarship but that is a pretty high threshold.
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Re: Please defend NIL

Unread post by AppSt94 » Sun May 22, 2022 1:01 pm

McLeansvilleAppFan wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 12:50 pm
AppSt94 wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 11:49 am
McLeansvilleAppFan wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 10:19 am
AppSt94 wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 9:39 am
Saint3333 wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 9:15 am
The irony of capitalist against the NIL and the socialist for it isn’t lost on me.
Agree. I was thinking the same thing.
I don't think it is irony. It is about looking at the world in a way that produces outcomes that lead to a world-view closer to what one would like. (And I am not a big "the ends justify the means type person.) I am not a fan of all the money in college athletics, but it is there and has been for a long time but has really ramped up the last few decades. If the money is there it needs to go to ALL of those that earn it and hopefully can be done in a way that does not make the whole system implode, but if that happens maybe what takes its place will be a better system.

As a socialist I am not against anyone making money. What I am against is someone not getting their fair share.
How do you define fair share? Our OL gets free cookies from Blue Deer Cookies, the Texas RB got a Lamborghini. There is no such thing as fair share.

And to further the point. These NIL compensations aren’t coming from the revenue coffers of the NCAA. They are coming, in large part, from boosters that want to attract the best players possible to ensure that they can leave the stadiums and arenas happy with a W.
I am aware of where the money is coming from. It is not idea but better than nothing at all for the athletes. And I wish there was more revenue sharing across all the schools but there is not.

I am not crazy about the situation, but it is better and moving in the "more fair" direction for athletes. Will there be some bad actors in all of this? Sure, but I am not willing to toss out the possibility of an athlete making some money off NIL when coaches and AD are making what they make. For me there is not much more to discuss about the general idea, though some limits could be in place. Limits could inlude a "tax" or a "fee" on excessive NIL payments. I do think if NIL income is large enough a school should not give a scholarship but that is a pretty high threshold.
We can agree that there is room for improvements to the system. And until there are clear and concise rules in place to regulate this, it is basically a free for all. I’m sure that the money and gifts are taxable. Given the complexity of the US Tax Code, it’s hard to think that it isn’t taxable.

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Re: Please defend NIL

Unread post by McLeansvilleAppFan » Sun May 22, 2022 1:06 pm

I am sure it is taxable income as it should be. When I was thinking tax, I was thinking more of a salary cap tax used in some major leagues. If NIL money is so great the student would pay a fee to the NCAA or their conference that could be used by all schools.

I do hope some rules are in place soon. The long term success of college athletics as we know it depends on some parity and room to shake things up by the underdog. That is what makes March Madness so great.
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