I'm pro-FBS and thought the vitriol was uncalled for. Point out the fallacies but name calling is unnecessary.

The student seats are too low to fetch a premium price. Until the field is lowered, they will continue to be student seats.

AppinVA wrote:The student seats are too low to fetch a premium price. Until the field is lowered, they will continue to be student seats.

thank god!!

I've just been calling a spade a spade. I never said the kid was an [edited]. I called him an idiot once, then wrote 100 words directly attacking one of the main assertions he made.

Demonize me and others that want what I want if you choose, it won't stop the wheels of progress and neither will an ill-timed, factually inaccurate petition website.

My bad...I guess I was confusing what you called him here with what you called him on AGS.

No one is demonizing you because they want to stop the "wheels of progress." I don't know if I want what you want, but I do know I want us to finally achieve an invite to an FBS conference. And when we do, I hope we accept it with some class.

We are and should be way past someone's vitriol about whether to go FBS. We should have gone FBS many years ago. No doubts in my mind about that. It will only enhance our game day experiences and make sense for the university.

FBS Now!

vegattk wrote:

Saint3333 wrote:

vegattk wrote:I find it funny that the majority of the posts on here are "heaping" on this kid.

I, for one, want to give him props for doing something about what he believes in. Heck, even though he doesn't put a whole lot of facts in his argument, he does raise a good point about students having to pay more for worse seats...

Something tells me those guys on the 50 up front will be cheering no matter what division we're in.

I have no issue with the right to voice an opposing opinion, however the untruths and poor presentation is well open to criticism.

I certainly agree... But did this guy BRING this to the MMB, or did someone scrounge it in the intrawebs to bring it to the pro-fbs altar here on our new board?

It just seemed that there were a few on here that were openly hostile to this poor kid. IMHO I never remembered such open hostility/mocking/hatred expressed with the posters back on the old MMB...

My only disagreement here is that this is a "poor kid." He set out to make a statement, and did so publicly. The first lesson I learned at was "to know your audience." He has to be well aware that the majority of people support a move to FBS. As a result, the onus is on him to make well-reasoned arguments and to produce verifiable facts for both positions so that he can adequately draw comparisons between the two options. As it were, his site is nothing more than opinion with less facts than what can be found in most FCS/FBS threads on this very board.

I give him kudos for putting himself out there, but you can't present his case as weakly as he did and expect a lot of sympathy. With that said, yes it did seem to be posted here to be a "hit thread." And, the vitriol and personal attacks are uncalled for. He never called pro-FBSers names, that I could tell. While calling me a name doesn't hurt my feelings, it does show a weakness in the namecaller's persuasion abilities.

vegattk wrote:

Gonzo wrote:You know the anti-progress App fans are out of ammo when the only realistic dissent is "you guys are being too mean."

It depends on what you would consider progress... Some believe FBS would not be "progress"

And folks like yourself aren't being "too mean" Just rude, boorish & downright obnoxious.

I have had many conversations with pro-fbsers and not once did it boil down to calling each other idiots. At least the folks I argue with know I'm arguing with them... This kid probably doesn't even know this thread exists..

Stay classy Gonzo....

That's not true, I've heard you call our favorite town manager an "idiot" several times.

ASUMountaineer wrote:

vegattk wrote:

Saint3333 wrote:

vegattk wrote:I find it funny that the majority of the posts on here are "heaping" on this kid.

I, for one, want to give him props for doing something about what he believes in. Heck, even though he doesn't put a whole lot of facts in his argument, he does raise a good point about students having to pay more for worse seats...

Something tells me those guys on the 50 up front will be cheering no matter what division we're in.

I have no issue with the right to voice an opposing opinion, however the untruths and poor presentation is well open to criticism.

I certainly agree... But did this guy BRING this to the MMB, or did someone scrounge it in the intrawebs to bring it to the pro-fbs altar here on our new board?

It just seemed that there were a few on here that were openly hostile to this poor kid. IMHO I never remembered such open hostility/mocking/hatred expressed with the posters back on the old MMB...

My only disagreement here is that this is a "poor kid." He set out to make a statement, and did so publicly. The first lesson I learned at was "to know your audience." He has to be well aware that the majority of people support a move to FBS. As a result, the onus is on him to make well-reasoned arguments and to produce verifiable facts for both positions so that he can adequately draw comparisons between the two options. As it were, his site is nothing more than opinion with less facts than what can be found in most FCS/FBS threads on this very board.

I give him kudos for putting himself out there, but you can't present his case as weakly as he did and expect a lot of sympathy. With that said, yes it did seem to be posted here to be a "hit thread." And, the vitriol and personal attacks are uncalled for. He never called pro-FBSers names, that I could tell. While calling me a name doesn't hurt my feelings, it does show a weakness in the namecaller's persuasion abilities.

Unless I read it wrong this was a student survey. I think you are safe in assuming that on this board there is majority support for fbs move. I have not seen a student survey that shows majority support. In fact I would be willing to bet that if students and parents of students were surveyed and told "your fees are going to increase to fund a move up" there would not be majority support. This is not an effort to impede growth. People are just setting priorities. Am I paying for a college education or a football team? The people on here attacking this guy probably do not have a dog in the student fee fight so they don't care if they increase.

Students are posters also and should not be thought of differently.
Makes you wonder how much he researched what he wrote, but could be said about all of us.

Let's get going into FBS now.

hapapp wrote:My bad...I guess I was confusing what you called him here with what you called him on AGS.

Oh you mean these posts?
Apphole: What a ****ing moron. As biased and misinformed as he is, he's a year and a half late regardless. I'll bet any amount of money that this fool is a Tar Heel BBall fan. The defeatist attitude left with Borkowski.

"Athletic Director Charlie Cobb has gone on the record as saying ASU will move divisions at the next available opportunity. That means ASU could be playing FBS football as soon as next fall semester."
Clearly this dude has done his homework....

The guy is clearly not very smart. Or, at the very least, he has poorly argued his point to the extent that most observers with any knowledge of the topic would characterize him as misinformed, misguided and every other fancy word for wrong and stupid.

Well that seems like the same sort of mild insult, followed by direct criticism I've shown here. Not exactly defamation of character and not exactly unfounded criticism to say the least.

Look, this is the reality that this kid has rightfully found himself in (and as vega said last night, the poor bastard probably has no idea these threads exists. Hell, based on his ignorance, I'd be surprised if he even knew MMB or AGS existed). When you try and start a PUBLIC outcry and do so with some of the most shoddy research, poor grammar and contrived missinformation as possible, you will be PUBLICLY critiqued for doing so. If the level of your work is so low, people will begin to make inferences about your intelligence, or at the very least, your work ethic, and rightfully so.

I refuse to apologize for telling it like it is. If he had presented a compelling, or at least half-way coherent argument, I wouldn't have touched on him personally. It's not every day you see me posting about how big of a dumb ass someone is. I don't need to when I do well enough reputing pro-FCS assertions.

ASUMountaineer wrote:

vegattk wrote:

Gonzo wrote:You know the anti-progress App fans are out of ammo when the only realistic dissent is "you guys are being too mean."

It depends on what you would consider progress... Some believe FBS would not be "progress"

And folks like yourself aren't being "too mean" Just rude, boorish & downright obnoxious.

I have had many conversations with pro-fbsers and not once did it boil down to calling each other idiots. At least the folks I argue with know I'm arguing with them... This kid probably doesn't even know this thread exists..

Stay classy Gonzo....

That's not true, I've heard you call our favorite town manager an "idiot" several times.

It's different when it's true!

appbio91 wrote:

ASUMountaineer wrote:

vegattk wrote:

Saint3333 wrote:

vegattk wrote:I find it funny that the majority of the posts on here are "heaping" on this kid.

I, for one, want to give him props for doing something about what he believes in. Heck, even though he doesn't put a whole lot of facts in his argument, he does raise a good point about students having to pay more for worse seats...

Something tells me those guys on the 50 up front will be cheering no matter what division we're in.

I have no issue with the right to voice an opposing opinion, however the untruths and poor presentation is well open to criticism.

I certainly agree... But did this guy BRING this to the MMB, or did someone scrounge it in the intrawebs to bring it to the pro-fbs altar here on our new board?

It just seemed that there were a few on here that were openly hostile to this poor kid. IMHO I never remembered such open hostility/mocking/hatred expressed with the posters back on the old MMB...

My only disagreement here is that this is a "poor kid." He set out to make a statement, and did so publicly. The first lesson I learned at was "to know your audience." He has to be well aware that the majority of people support a move to FBS. As a result, the onus is on him to make well-reasoned arguments and to produce verifiable facts for both positions so that he can adequately draw comparisons between the two options. As it were, his site is nothing more than opinion with less facts than what can be found in most FCS/FBS threads on this very board.

I give him kudos for putting himself out there, but you can't present his case as weakly as he did and expect a lot of sympathy. With that said, yes it did seem to be posted here to be a "hit thread." And, the vitriol and personal attacks are uncalled for. He never called pro-FBSers names, that I could tell. While calling me a name doesn't hurt my feelings, it does show a weakness in the namecaller's persuasion abilities.

Unless I read it wrong this was a student survey. I think you are safe in assuming that on this board there is majority support for fbs move. I have not seen a student survey that shows majority support. In fact I would be willing to bet that if students and parents of students were surveyed and told "your fees are going to increase to fund a move up" there would not be majority support. This is not an effort to impede growth. People are just setting priorities. Am I paying for a college education or a football team? The people on here attacking this guy probably do not have a dog in the student fee fight so they don't care if they increase.

We'll have to agree to disagree on students' thoughts, as I would bet differently. I never said that wanting to remain in the FCS is an "effort to impede growth," that's your story. Additionally, you took that portion of my post out of context. I said "people" not "students," and while he may have the student survey, the website is open to the public. Again, "know your audience" is a very important lesson.

As was stated before, when it comes to student fees you can ask that question about everything "non-essential" to educational studies. The student fees were raised during my time there and we didn't change subdivisions in athletics. Schools officials always consider increasing student fees when looking to raise revenue, and I would bet that any given number of programs that an increase in fees goes to will be objected to by blocks of students/parents.

vegattk wrote:

ASUMountaineer wrote:

vegattk wrote:

Gonzo wrote:You know the anti-progress App fans are out of ammo when the only realistic dissent is "you guys are being too mean."

It depends on what you would consider progress... Some believe FBS would not be "progress"

And folks like yourself aren't being "too mean" Just rude, boorish & downright obnoxious.

I have had many conversations with pro-fbsers and not once did it boil down to calling each other idiots. At least the folks I argue with know I'm arguing with them... This kid probably doesn't even know this thread exists..

Stay classy Gonzo....

That's not true, I've heard you call our favorite town manager an "idiot" several times.

It's different when it's true!

Well, it may be true in this case, we just don't know for sure yet.

Didn't GSU students agree to an increase in student fees? why wouldnt App students do the same? ASU has one of the lowest instate cost right now and we are a very respected school in terms of education. But i often wonder is our cost low because of how our school is run? steam from the plant heating buildings, wind mill put up, solar panels heating water for dorms. Do these actions help ASU keep its tuition low? IDK i don't think anyone can answer that but saying student would shoot it down is a bit out of line i feel. Until a vote happens no one can say what the entire student body feels

App's costs are low, even while it continues to provide a better and better education despite drastic cuts, because it is run by a brilliant business man.

Thank you Dr. Peacock.

3rd wrote:Didn't GSU students agree to an increase in student fees? why wouldnt App students do the same? ASU has one of the lowest instate cost right now and we are a very respected school in terms of education. But i often wonder is our cost low because of how our school is run? steam from the plant heating buildings, wind mill put up, solar panels heating water for dorms. Do these actions help ASU keep its tuition low? IDK i don't think anyone can answer that but saying student would shoot it down is a bit out of line i feel. Until a vote happens no one can say what the entire student body feels

The wind mill supplied power to broyhill which is no more. ASU is recognized nationally for our sustainability efforts but these technologies are expensive. They are not cost savers but are the right thing to do in terms of our footprint on the environment. We are recognized for our quality for value. We keep increasing costs we lose the value part.

vegattk wrote: Does anyone know an FBS team that has free student seating on the 50 up front? If so I'd like to know....

Seems to me we'd NEED that space to sell premium tickets to afford to be FBS in the first place.

I tried to post this yesterday, but it seems to have got lost in the internets somewhere.

While not major FBS programs I know that Texas State, UTSA and Miami (Ohio) all have students on the 50 . In addition I am sure that many of the MAC, SunBelt and CUSA schools will also have the students there as well. I also bet that Ga State, ODU and UNCC will have them there as well.

What do all these schools have in common? They have low attendance and and/or are new to FBS football. Will they continue to have students on the 50 yard line? Time will tell. If they achieve success similar to a Boise State the answer will be no because those seats are valuable and can be sold for high dollar.

App may find itself moving students in the future if demand is great, but that is probably several years down the line.

I'm sure some of them may complain a bit but ECU's students have embraced their seating area, naming it "THE BONEYARD" and appear to have a dandy time during games. Their seating used to be behind the visitors bench toward the endzone so they haven't been on the 50 for a long time. I don't anticipate our students moving anytime soon.

I believe a lot and i mean a lot would have to be done to change the student seating to season ticket or single game ticket. The slope of the student seating is very different from the home side now (cant speak for guest side never been over there for a game) also all the bleachers would have to be changed and put backs on them. This has to be expensive, because i look at the baseball stadium and i cant help by ask " Could we really not add backs to bleachers on a stadium this small?