Pay to Play

[bigdaddyg]

Who cares what they're spending they're money on. You go out there and sacrifice your body to play a game which brings in millions for the school and a "free education" for yourself. Hate to tell you boys but this "free education" doesn't really hold the value it did when most of you old timers were coming along. It's a basic American economic principle, you are PAID for the work you do. This is the only job in America where a "free education" is suppose to be sufficient. It's a joke give me a break and even the former lawyers of the NCAA know the entire system is bullshit they created simply by coming up with the term "student-athlete." Which brings me to just how counter-productive that term is when you can be cut strictly for athletic purposes. Not to mention they're expected to workout at 6AM then go to class then go watch film then practice then workout again THEN hit the library to study. Meanwhile you guys are up here trying to compare your minimum wage bullshit college job to the amount of time and effort these guys put in. Give me a break, and give the kids what they deserve

I was going to leave this alone until this statement..

First, I am not an old timer so I do see where you are coming from. Yes, athletes have to work extremely hard on the field/court as well as in the classroom. But, in a time where student loan debt is at an all time high, they are being paid. In fact, they are being paid more than the minimum wage (with tuition, room and board, meal plans, etc.) job that some students have to have to make ends meet.

I know plenty of students that graduated around the time I did (less than 10 years ago) that had close to $60,000 in student loans for undergrad only. And this was because their majors were so demanding, they could not have a job to be able to pay rent or eat. So, in 4 years, that's $15,000 a year. So, at the minimum wage of $7.25 an hour (was less than that most of my time in school), that is just over 2068 hours (without calculating any taxes -- which would mean more hours) -- roughly 39.78 hours a week AS WELL AS BEING A FULL TIME STUDENT.

Of course there are some students that are lucky enough to have parents/family members paying for their living expenses. But there are just as many, if not more, that are not fortunate to have that option.

So yes, the athletes, while they do work their tails off on the court/field, they are coming out with a college education with 0 debt whereas some of their peers are coming out with $60,000+. And let's not just assume they are working hard for our entertainment and to make money for the University/Athletic department. Every single one of those players have dreams/aspirations of getting on the next level of their sport -- so they are also working hard for that -- and the athletic department is providing them those tools (trainers, strength and conditioning, coaching, etc.)

Very good points by both (BS withstanding). I contend that there will never be a dollar figure that works for everyone. If you really want to get down to it you can argue that the rigorous schedules that many portray don't exactly encompass the entire year. Aside from Spring practice, what do football players, in particular do every day from now until July or August when camp opens? If my math serves me correctly that is about 5 months. I know they probably weightlift and generally work out but there is no practice, probably no film study to speak of. Do the schools continue to pay them for the off-season? UNC fake classes aside don't a majority of the major sport athletes generally just take a minimum class load throughout the 4,5 or even 6 years they are given to obtain a degree (summers included)? Of the athletes who stay around long enough to actually graduate what is the percentage who obtain a degree in a demanding curiculum? I only raise these points because I contend that this matter is not cut and dried and contains no simple solution. I agree that football players in particular make a huge physical sacrifice for their schools but I hate the "brings in millions of dollars" argument. That really only holds true for a handful of big time programs. Once this cat is let out of the bag there is no getting it back in.

[3rd]

I just find it ironic that we are saying schools make millions on these students athletes(I would argue NCAA but paying these athletes is being put on the schools)...but our message board just had to raise money because our school didn't have a few thousand dollars to buy equipment...

[Gonzo]

Who cares what they're spending they're money on. You go out there and sacrifice your body to play a game which brings in millions for the school and a "free education" for yourself. Hate to tell you boys but this "free education" doesn't really hold the value it did when most of you old timers were coming along. It's a basic American economic principle, you are PAID for the work you do. This is the only job in America where a "free education" is suppose to be sufficient. It's a joke give me a break and even the former lawyers of the NCAA know the entire system is bullshit they created simply by coming up with the term "student-athlete." Which brings me to just how counter-productive that term is when you can be cut strictly for athletic purposes. Not to mention they're expected to workout at 6AM then go to class then go watch film then practice then workout again THEN hit the library to study. Meanwhile you guys are up here trying to compare your minimum wage bullshit college job to the amount of time and effort these guys put in. Give me a break, and give the kids what they deserve

I agree with AppStateNews.

The student-athlete system is very transactional even though they never receive cash compensation. Our football players offer a service for ~ $80k worth of tuition, room and board, and staples. You also get amenities that most paying students don't have access to (tutors, athletic training equipment -- not to mention potential exposure to NFL scouts that would be virtually impossible without this arrangement). Every bit of that is wealth accretion/income, at least from a tax perspective.

It's hard to value the service. How much net income does a mid-major football program pull? Not much apparently. After all, shouldn't we know more than most? I mean we just took the FBS leap after a comprehensive study on the economics of FBS football. You tell me the exact dollar amount their service is worth.

It makes a lot more sense for Alabama and Southern Cal. They're more similar to an NFL franchise than we are to them. For us it's OBVIOUSLY a move to catch up and try to remain competitive in recruiting. There is absolutely nothing -- NOTHING -- functional about ULL or any other mid major paying their players aside from trying to stay on pace with the P5. The players' welfare argument is hogwash. They've always gotten a pretty sweet deal for an 18-22 year old who, at this point in his life, is not good enough to play football professionally and likely lacks any other marketable skills.

[bcoach]

Do the athletic trainers receive no compensation? - if so, I agree that this is something that needs to be addressed ---

They get a couple of t-shirts on occasion.

[Gonzo]

Do the athletic trainers receive no compensation? - if so, I agree that this is something that needs to be addressed ---

They get a couple of t-shirts on occasion.

They get federal work-studies if they qualify. Valuable clinical experience as well.

[bcoach]

Do the athletic trainers receive no compensation? - if so, I agree that this is something that needs to be addressed ---

They get a couple of t-shirts on occasion.

They get federal work-studies if they qualify. Valuable clinical experience as well.

I am not familiar with federal work studies but the clinical experience is learning that they pay tuition to receive. Don't take that as a comeback as I don't mean it that way. Yes they do get valuable experience but rather than getting paid to get it they have to pay.

[wataugan03]

Do the athletic trainers receive no compensation? - if so, I agree that this is something that needs to be addressed ---

They get a couple of t-shirts on occasion.

They get federal work-studies if they qualify. Valuable clinical experience as well.

I am not familiar with federal work studies but the clinical experience is learning that they pay tuition to receive. Don't take that as a comeback as I don't mean it that way. Yes they do get valuable experience but rather than getting paid to get it they have to pay.

There are no rules preventing student trainers from receiving money. You're looking at the free market. And what the market (the college athletics market) is willing to pay for them is $0. I see it as part of a larger trend: the rise of unpaid internships.

College football and basketball players are in much higher demand (which doesn't always mean that they are producing significant revenue; sometimes we want our white elephants). Its taken an artificial barrier to keep their compensation down.

If you think trainers and athletes should be compensated based on something other than what they can demand for their services, that's fine. But what I find odd is that most people who support caps on student-athlete compensation are also ardent supporters of free markets (not saying that you fall into this camp, I don't know). For a long time everyone tried to cloak this contradiction under the charade of amateurism, but nobody is buying that anymore. College football and basketball look professional in every respect except for the player's compensation.

There are only two ways this can end: a total free market, or a union with collective bargaining rights. If you're not interested in that you should advocate a move to D2, or probably D3. Or maybe you just dislike the way the free market allocates resources, and want to advocate heavy regulation. I think those are the only serious options.

[AtlAppMan]

First point: This ship has sailed. The decision has been made whether you like it or not. UL is not changing the rules for anybody, they are just trying to survive. And this is going to be the standard going forward and I bet you most G5 schools will follow.

Second point: Before everybody starts jumping around screaming about the $$$ amount, what is App's amount? It is a government formula. It also varies significantly by school based on several factors. See this article in the AJC about Ga Tech/UGA/Kennesaw St/Tenn.
http://georgiatech.blog.ajc.com/2015/01 ... -stipends/

The good news for Appalachian State is that our Cost is relatively low compared to others.

http://www.collegecost.ed.gov/scorecard ... &id=197869

However, I still cannot determine exactly what the net difference would be from scholarship to total costs?

Can anybody chime in on this amount? That would at least give us a barometer reading on where we stand from a budgetary position.

Additional Info for in-state student:
Estimated tuition and fees - $6,289
+ Estimated room and board charges
(Includes rooming accommodations and meals) - $7,224
+ Estimated cost of books and supplies - $700
+ Estimated other expenses
(Personal expenses, transportation, etc.) - $4,318
Estimated total cost of attendance: $18,531

So how much is our scholarship covering?

[Yosef10]

AppStateNews: I understand that student debt is an at all time high. But what did you or your friend ever bring to the table to benefit the university to the level the football team does? Attendance at app has roughly double in the past 10 years and a large portion of that can be attributed to the 3 national championships. And Gonzo yes I agree it would be hard/difficult/confusing to figure it out but that's lazy. There are far more confusing things in America ie. tax codes, etc. There are people out there smart enough to figure it out if the proper figures wanted them to

[3rd]

This may sound mean but it is true...for every one of those football players that brings something to the university there is another female put on scholarship that I doubt is in the positive for what they bring vs. there cost. Oh and BTW we are way out of compliance for 9 right now (I believe).

But if you want to talk about the real problem look to my previous post.(NCAA makes most money, most schools scrapping by are getting stuck with more cost now.)

[bcoach]

This may sound mean but it is true...for every one of those football players that brings something to the university there is another female put on scholarship that I doubt is in the positive for what they bring vs. there cost. Oh and BTW we are way out of compliance for 9 right now (I believe).

It is a very good point about those female athletes. They don't bring in anywhere near what the wrestlers bring in

[3rd]

This may sound mean but it is true...for every one of those football players that brings something to the university there is another female put on scholarship that I doubt is in the positive for what they bring vs. there cost. Oh and BTW we are way out of compliance for 9 right now (I believe).

It is a very good point about those female athletes. They don't bring in anywhere near what the wrestlers bring in

Oh I agree 100%. I just went with Females because we are required by law to have a 1-1 ratio. The thing I hate most is that I believe this will cause schools like us to cut sports...I would rather just pay for more students to get an education rather than less.

[AppStateNews]

AppStateNews: I understand that student debt is an at all time high. But what did you or your friend ever bring to the table to benefit the university to the level the football team does? Attendance at app has roughly double in the past 10 years and a large portion of that can be attributed to the 3 national championships. And Gonzo yes I agree it would be hard/difficult/confusing to figure it out but that's lazy. There are far more confusing things in America ie. tax codes, etc. There are people out there smart enough to figure it out if the proper figures wanted them to

I understand your point -- I real do!

But you are looking at it as the athletes are only doing the University good. You aren't looking at it from the vantage point that the University is also providing the athletes with a free college education, but also the tools to get them to the next level on their sport. I am not just talking about just football either.

Take Donald Sims for example. If I remember correctly, he had one other offer coming out of high school (Gardner Webb maybe?). Appalachian State gave him the ability to play basketball for a free education, free coaching, free training staff to keep him healthy, free strength and conditioning to get him stronger, free exposure to scouts (albeit very few for basketball), etc. That far out weighs the amount of just a free education. Without any of that, it's not likely Donald Sims gets invited to NBA camps, participates in the d league, and is now paying professionally overseas.

Heck, take Armani Edwards. Without our coaching, training, strength and conditioning, exposure, etc., does he make it to the NFL? Possibly -- we don't know for sure. But one thing we do know for sure is all of the things him playing football here gave him was a better opportunity to play the game he loved on the next level. Oh, and it gave him a free education so now that he's not in the NFL, he can have a successful career because he also go those same tools all other students are given.

So, I really do see where you are coming from with this, but you need to look at it from the other side. It's not just a free education. It's a free education, coming out with that education debt free and a degree, AND getting the tools, resources, exposure, and abilities to advance themselves in the sport they have worked their tail off their whole lives to get to that next level.

[bcoach]

Do the athletic trainers receive no compensation? - if so, I agree that this is something that needs to be addressed ---

They get a couple of t-shirts on occasion.

They get federal work-studies if they qualify. Valuable clinical experience as well.

I am not familiar with federal work studies but the clinical experience is learning that they pay tuition to receive. Don't take that as a comeback as I don't mean it that way. Yes they do get valuable experience but rather than getting paid to get it they have to pay.

There are no rules preventing student trainers from receiving money. You're looking at the free market. And what the market (the college athletics market) is willing to pay for them is $0. I see it as part of a larger trend: the rise of unpaid internships.

College football and basketball players are in much higher demand (which doesn't always mean that they are producing significant revenue; sometimes we want our white elephants). Its taken an artificial barrier to keep their compensation down.

If you think trainers and athletes should be compensated based on something other than what they can demand for their services, that's fine. But what I find odd is that most people who support caps on student-athlete compensation are also ardent supporters of free markets (not saying that you fall into this camp, I don't know). For a long time everyone tried to cloak this contradiction under the charade of amateurism, but nobody is buying that anymore. College football and basketball look professional in every respect except for the player's compensation.

There are only two ways this can end: a total free market, or a union with collective bargaining rights. If you're not interested in that you should advocate a move to D2, or probably D3. Or maybe you just dislike the way the free market allocates resources, and want to advocate heavy regulation. I think those are the only serious options.

Well if you are talking about a true free market then football will be the only sport we have at ASU. No other sport supports its self.

[bigdaddyg]

It absolutely amazes me how anyone can realistically argue for athletes to be paid. It is as if college athletics just sprang up in the last few years. And it is as if college athletics JUST started making money in the past few years. Why is the onus placed on the university to pony up the money? Why isn't ESPN, ABC, FOX, etc required to pay the stipends? Aren't they the ones really making the most profit? I realize that a handful of big boys bring in major cash from ticket sales at large stadiums, some have TV deals, etc. but even many of the P5's can't possibly be that far in the black. If everyone in our society was paid based solely on what they deem to be worth our economic structure would collapse. Fast food workers wanting $15 per hour? Insane. We hear all the time that teachers, police, fire fighters, etc are all underpaid. My wife has taught for years and makes what I think is a pretty good salary considering she gets about 3.5 months paid vacation. Who knows what the correct salary is for police, armed forces, fire fighters, on and on. That being said, a full ride scholarship is worth far more than the tuition, books, room and board, trainers cost, etc that some use to validate not paying to play. Without a full ride a great majority of college athletes would never be able to attend college. A great majority would never even come close to qualifying. We all know that 99.9% of athletes will never snif the pros so the opportunity afforded them with a college scholarship is gold. What they choose to do with that opportunity is up to them. As far as a stipend goes I believe that each athlete should have to apply for aid. Colleges give free grants all the time. My son isn't an athlete but generally gets a $1000 grant each semester to use as he sees fit. That equates to about $200 per month for the semester. Any kid with access to free food and a free place to live should be able to make that money work. I don't know that the answer is but I firmly believe that paying a stipend will not work. Bigger schools will find a way to circumvent the process in order to channel larger amounts of money to the marquee players. You can't tell me that alumni no longer slip cash to players. The NCAA most certainly profits big time on college athletes. College athletes know this going in. They are ecstatic on signing day when they sign their name on that offer sheet. If a full ride scholarship isn't enough they should just not go to school.

[AppState89]

If I was a current student, not athlete, paying my way (or family), I would be pissed. The athletes are getting a free ride (most of them), so if I maintain A,B or C's, shouldn't I be able to receive money too? Yes, athletes are bringing in millions to the school, but they are getting at the very least $18,000 worth of FREE education. Just how many athletes from App (all sports) will make it to the next level NEXT year? Maybe 1 if we are lucky. That FREE education will get them further than their sport. Just my honest opionion.

[WVAPPeer]

Knowing that we are just in a discussion mode on this and have no real say so, I will add that this shouldn't be a blindside moment - With all the discussions about the move up I distinctly remember this "pay for play" as one item - I know FireMoose has been talking this for several years --- When we discussed the SunBelt the expense of travel was always an item discussed but if we wanted to be in the SunBelt then we had to make it happen - The same with this - if it comes to fruition for the G5 then we make it happen or we fall back --- No one (we fans) has to like it or agree it's the thing to do ---

[AppStateNews]

If I was a current student, not athlete, paying my way (or family), I would be pissed. The athletes are getting a free ride (most of them), so if I maintain A,B or C's, shouldn't I be able to receive money too? Yes, athletes are bringing in millions to the school, but they are getting at the very least $18,000 worth of FREE education. Just how many athletes from App (all sports) will make it to the next level NEXT year? Maybe 1 if we are lucky. That FREE education will get them further than their sport. Just my honest opionion.

While few of the athletes make it to the next level in their sport (at all schools), without that college program (coaching, strength and conditioning, training, nutrition, etc.), even less would make it to the next level.

I think we are in agreement here, but just wanted to point out that it's not just a FREE education. It's also a priceless level of other luxuries other students aren't given to HELP (not guarantee) the athletes pursue their life long dream (and hard work) to get to that next level.

[bcoach]

If I was a current student, not athlete, paying my way (or family), I would be pissed. The athletes are getting a free ride (most of them), so if I maintain A,B or C's, shouldn't I be able to receive money too? Yes, athletes are bringing in millions to the school, but they are getting at the very least $18,000 worth of FREE education. Just how many athletes from App (all sports) will make it to the next level NEXT year? Maybe 1 if we are lucky. That FREE education will get them further than their sport. Just my honest opionion.

I agree but will quibble with only one point. They are not bringing in the millions some would like us to believe. You just can't count the student fee contribution to what they bring in. Those student fees are like a tax you have to pay to keep your place. You don't pay the fee you don't attend the school. It is a fee paid by many who never attend a game. Again I love my football but just want to keep it honest. If you eliminated the fees how many students would pay $25.00 for a ticket?

[Yosef10]

If I was a current student, not athlete, paying my way (or family), I would be pissed. The athletes are getting a free ride (most of them), so if I maintain A,B or C's, shouldn't I be able to receive money too? Yes, athletes are bringing in millions to the school, but they are getting at the very least $18,000 worth of FREE education. Just how many athletes from App (all sports) will make it to the next level NEXT year? Maybe 1 if we are lucky. That FREE education will get them further than their sport. Just my honest opionion.

While few of the athletes make it to the next level in their sport (at all schools), without that college program (coaching, strength and conditioning, training, nutrition, etc.), even less would make it to the next level.

I think we are in agreement here, but just wanted to point out that it's not just a FREE education. It's also a priceless level of other luxuries other students aren't given to HELP (not guarantee) the athletes pursue their life long dream (and hard work) to get to that next level.

Other students aren't given those luxuries becuause as of right now they provide ZERO VALUE to the school, the same can't be said for mainly the football team. You point out the "free" luxuries these guys get but you try to abide by the schedule these guys have to , which in itself proves they care about these guys much more as ATHLETES than STUDENTS. Also, the fact that college football holds a monopoly as the only developmental league for the NFL, and that's what it is dont kid yourselves, speaks to how much of a sham this system is. Let's provide "$15k" a year for this kid to come line our pockets even more than they already are.

Trust me I'm grateful to receive a college education but that doesn't automatically equal to CASH in the future. So to say that free tuition should replace the actual money they have earned but instead old white guys goes against our ecomomic system and my economic values. The ONLY profession that brings in BILLIONS yet makes 0