Pay to Play

App1990 · Unread post by **App1990** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:55 pm

ULL appears to be clueless on what it is doing to itself and the Sun Belt (and G5). It's like they are not thinking ahead on how this will play out. I can't believe ULL is making this move, and even worse, that the Sun Belt and the rest of G5 agree not to engage in a bidding war they cannot win. P5 budgets are in another stratosphere than G5 budgets. It is simply ridiculous for G5 programs to think they can compete in bidding against P5 programs. Doing so will only make the already bad G5 budget situation much much worse, and it will hurt the academic side of things for many places. What needs to happen is that the Sun Belt and the G5 programs agree to set limits on scholarship costs. Agree not to play a no-win game. Of course, the best players will go to P5 programs, but that was going to happen 99% of the time anyway. The extra money will just make it 100% of the time. As before, we will get the second tier players. But at least the G5 programs will be on the same page, and not undermining their own viability by bidding against each other. It's not rocket science. ULL needs to get someone else to think about this instead of the AD and Coach.

WVAPPeer · Unread post by **WVAPPeer** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:00 pm

App1990 wrote:ULL appears to be clueless on what it is doing to itself and the Sun Belt (and G5). It's like they are not thinking ahead on how this will play out. I can't believe ULL is making this move, and even worse, that the Sun Belt and the rest of G5 agree not to engage in a bidding war they cannot win. P5 budgets are in another stratosphere than G5 budgets. It is simply ridiculous for G5 programs to think they can compete in bidding against P5 programs. Doing so will only make the already bad G5 budget situation much much worse, and it will hurt the academic side of things for many places. What needs to happen is that the Sun Belt and the G5 programs agree to set limits on scholarship costs. Agree not to play a no-win game. Of course, the best players will go to P5 programs, but that was going to happen 99% of the time anyway. The extra money will just make it 100% of the time. As before, we will get the second tier players. But at least the G5 programs will be on the same page, and not undermining their own viability by bidding against each other. It's not rocket science. ULL needs to get someone else to think about this instead of the AD and Coach.

Possibly their reasoning has not much to do with "bidding" with the P5 programs but to "outbid" the other G5 programs? ---

8993 · Unread post by **8993** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:15 pm

WVAPPeer wrote:
App1990 wrote:ULL appears to be clueless on what it is doing to itself and the Sun Belt (and G5). It's like they are not thinking ahead on how this will play out. I can't believe ULL is making this move, and even worse, that the Sun Belt and the rest of G5 agree not to engage in a bidding war they cannot win. P5 budgets are in another stratosphere than G5 budgets. It is simply ridiculous for G5 programs to think they can compete in bidding against P5 programs. Doing so will only make the already bad G5 budget situation much much worse, and it will hurt the academic side of things for many places. What needs to happen is that the Sun Belt and the G5 programs agree to set limits on scholarship costs. Agree not to play a no-win game. Of course, the best players will go to P5 programs, but that was going to happen 99% of the time anyway. The extra money will just make it 100% of the time. As before, we will get the second tier players. But at least the G5 programs will be on the same page, and not undermining their own viability by bidding against each other. It's not rocket science. ULL needs to get someone else to think about this instead of the AD and Coach.
Possibly their reasoning has not much to do with "bidding" with the P5 programs but to "outbid" the other G5 programs? ---

Which is a selfish move on their part. I understand that ULL wants the best G5 players out there, and I'm sure App does too, but ULL is basically starting this in the Sun Belt so all other schools have to, or else be left behind.

No matter what ULL does, it will never be a P5 school. It will never be LSU. It will never be the go-to school of Louisiana, so instead of screwing over your conference mates and other G5 schools, why not work together to be a better system than what the P5 schools have put together? ULL has set a bad example for the Sun Belt.

T-Dog · Unread post by **T-Dog** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:31 pm

ULL isn't starting anything. They're following a trend. To blame them for "bringing this to the Sun Belt" is short-sighted. Every school has had these discussions.

Yosef10 · Unread post by **Yosef10** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:49 pm

If by "keeping up with the joneses" you mean other G5 schools, that would be correct. I don't see any competent athletic dept at this level actually believing they can keep up with P5 schools. ULL isn't the only G5 school to provide full cost of attendance, which all these players deserve and more. No bigger over reaction than when all you guys come out claiming this is the end of college athletics, it's already a bidding war but designed only to benefit one party; administration. At least this gives the people who are actually producing the product, which nets around $1B a year, a very small piece of the pie. Exploitation at its finest.

bcoach · Unread post by **bcoach** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:07 pm

If you really want to find someone who is being taken advantage of it is the trainers. They put in more hours than any players. Not only do they not get scholarships they are also not able to work due the hours they put in. I keep hearing about what is fair for the players. How about the support people.
This whole thing is getting way out of hand and Saint is right on target. TV money is killing the golden goose.

EastHallApp · Unread post by **EastHallApp** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:55 pm

bcoach wrote:If you really want to find someone who is being taken advantage of it is the trainers. They put in more hours than any players. Not only do they not get scholarships they are also not able to work due the hours they put in. I keep hearing about what is fair for the players. How about the support people.
This whole thing is getting way out of hand and Saint is right on target. TV money is killing the golden goose.

I'm sure the support people provide very valuable services, but they aren't the reason for the billion dollar TV contracts. It's no different than any other entertainment industry - when you go to the movies, you aren't paying to see the guy holding the boom mike, you're paying to see the actors.

AppfaninCAALand · Unread post by **AppfaninCAALand** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:00 pm

I will believe college athletes need more spending money when they can no longer afford so many tattoos

NewApp · Unread post by **NewApp** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:35 pm

AppfaninCAALand wrote:I will believe college athletes need more spending money when they can no longer afford so many tattoos

BINGO....and beer.

App1990 · Unread post by **App1990** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:05 pm

WVAPPeer wrote:
App1990 wrote:ULL appears to be clueless on what it is doing to itself and the Sun Belt (and G5). It's like they are not thinking ahead on how this will play out. I can't believe ULL is making this move, and even worse, that the Sun Belt and the rest of G5 agree not to engage in a bidding war they cannot win. P5 budgets are in another stratosphere than G5 budgets. It is simply ridiculous for G5 programs to think they can compete in bidding against P5 programs. Doing so will only make the already bad G5 budget situation much much worse, and it will hurt the academic side of things for many places. What needs to happen is that the Sun Belt and the G5 programs agree to set limits on scholarship costs. Agree not to play a no-win game. Of course, the best players will go to P5 programs, but that was going to happen 99% of the time anyway. The extra money will just make it 100% of the time. As before, we will get the second tier players. But at least the G5 programs will be on the same page, and not undermining their own viability by bidding against each other. It's not rocket science. ULL needs to get someone else to think about this instead of the AD and Coach.
Possibly their reasoning has not much to do with "bidding" with the P5 programs but to "outbid" the other G5 programs? ---

It doesn't matter. Whether they are bidding with G5 or P5, it is a no-win approach. It isn't necessarily ULL's fault, but their approach is certainly less than wise. Instead of acting alone to set off a bidding war, they should be working with their Sun Belt and fellow G5 programs to set guidelines to keep the expense in check. If not, a bidding war is likely and the already strained G5 budgets will go bust. P5 programs can afford much more, but they still would be wise to set some limits (even if higher than G5). It's basic strategic management.

mikeyosef · Unread post by **mikeyosef** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:49 am

ULL and other schools in the SB should be working together on this but whose fault is that? Shouldn't Benson be taking the lead on this? Otherwise, there’s no end. As others have said, this is coming whether we like it or not. It's painful for me to think of the cost considering the added expenses we are already absorbing from the move up. However, there are added expenses for the student athlete not covered by scholarships and some can be substantial. Most if not all Universities list tuition cost and the "Total Cost" of attendance in their materials as a way to prepare parents for the real budget they will need. Most of us on this board are, shall we say, more seasoned than many and remember scraping through eating noodles or 3-4 for a $ Shell dogs but things are very different in college today. My daughter graduated the summer before last and the pressure to dress in the best, eat at nice restaurants, drink craft beer, etc. is enormous. Go to any game and observe the students...most look like they have money regardless of whether they do or not. It's a different environment. Call them soft, call them entitled, whatever but that's the environment our student athletes are coming into. Now, we can bitch and moan about this but expecting they're not watching and wanting something more is naive. IMO It’s not an unreasonable request.

Now, I worked the whole time I was in school and my daughter did as well. She had a choice, to live off of the monthly allowance we gave her or get a job. She chose to work as many of her friends did. Athletes do not have any time for work during the school year or, really the summer, so where do they get spending money. Many, many of our kids come from families that can’t offer them an allowance. It’s not fair and it’s not going to last….we can get on or off the bus. We are just going to have to figure out how to pony up more and that really hurts. Better get a hell of a fundraiser at AD!

WVAPPeer · Unread post by **WVAPPeer** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:04 am

AppfaninCAALand wrote:I will believe college athletes need more spending money when they can no longer afford so many tattoos

Of course, I do believe you are tongue in cheek here, but if not, this is a totally irrelevant comment - maybe they are spending too much money on Bibles or giving to their local church or helping a friend ---

Yosef10 · Unread post by **Yosef10** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:28 am

WVAPPeer wrote:
AppfaninCAALand wrote:I will believe college athletes need more spending money when they can no longer afford so many tattoos
Of course, I do believe you are tongue in cheek here, but if not, this is a totally irrelevant comment - maybe they are spending too much money on Bibles or giving to their local church or helping a friend ---

Who cares what they're spending they're money on. You go out there and sacrifice your body to play a game which brings in millions for the school and a "free education" for yourself. Hate to tell you boys but this "free education" doesn't really hold the value it did when most of you old timers were coming along. It's a basic American economic principle, you are PAID for the work you do. This is the only job in America where a "free education" is suppose to be sufficient. It's a joke give me a break and even the former lawyers of the NCAA know the entire system is bullshit they created simply by coming up with the term "student-athlete." Which brings me to just how counter-productive that term is when you can be cut strictly for athletic purposes. Not to mention they're expected to workout at 6AM then go to class then go watch film then practice then workout again THEN hit the library to study. Meanwhile you guys are up here trying to compare your minimum wage bullshit college job to the amount of time and effort these guys put in. Give me a break, and give the kids what they deserve

WVAPPeer · Unread post by **WVAPPeer** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:36 am

just so you know, I am in total agreement with you Yosef10 - just thought the comment about tattoos if not tongue in cheek, was irrelevant ---

bcoach · Unread post by **bcoach** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:52 am

EastHallApp wrote:
bcoach wrote:If you really want to find someone who is being taken advantage of it is the trainers. They put in more hours than any players. Not only do they not get scholarships they are also not able to work due the hours they put in. I keep hearing about what is fair for the players. How about the support people.
This whole thing is getting way out of hand and Saint is right on target. TV money is killing the golden goose.
I'm sure the support people provide very valuable services, but they aren't the reason for the billion dollar TV contracts. It's no different than any other entertainment industry - when you go to the movies, you aren't paying to see the guy holding the boom mike, you're paying to see the actors.

The trainers are a little different than a boom operator. Without the trainers many players would not be on the field or back to the field as soon as they are. To discount their importance is short sighted at best. They are at the field before the players arrive and after the players leave. To give the players the frills without giving the trainers the basics is just a shame.

bcoach · Unread post by **bcoach** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:07 am

Yosef10 wrote:
WVAPPeer wrote:
AppfaninCAALand wrote:I will believe college athletes need more spending money when they can no longer afford so many tattoos
Of course, I do believe you are tongue in cheek here, but if not, this is a totally irrelevant comment - maybe they are spending too much money on Bibles or giving to their local church or helping a friend ---
Who cares what they're spending they're money on. You go out there and sacrifice your body to play a game which brings in millions for the school and a "free education" for yourself. Hate to tell you boys but this "free education" doesn't really hold the value it did when most of you old timers were coming along. It's a basic American economic principle, you are PAID for the work you do. This is the only job in America where a "free education" is suppose to be sufficient. It's a joke give me a break and even the former lawyers of the NCAA know the entire system is bullshit they created simply by coming up with the term "student-athlete." Which brings me to just how counter-productive that term is when you can be cut strictly for athletic purposes. Not to mention they're expected to workout at 6AM then go to class then go watch film then practice then workout again THEN hit the library to study. Meanwhile you guys are up here trying to compare your minimum wage bullshit college job to the amount of time and effort these guys put in. Give me a break, and give the kids what they deserve

Talk to me about all the money it brings in after you subtract student fees from the budget. That money is not earned by anyone. That money is a required fee to attend the school. Look I love my football but enough is enough. You talk about their sacrificing their bodies like they are captives or something. They are out there because they love it. I appreciate what an athlete goes through but the walk on go through the same thing at their own expense.

kiddbrewer · Unread post by **kiddbrewer** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:16 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I have read, the cost of attendance is based on Government numbers that is published once a year. The cost of attendance minus the tuition/books/fees is the maximum amount a school can give to a student athlete.

If that number is, say $5000, then a school, P5 or G5, can't go above that as a supplement.

So a P5 school, say UNC can't outbid a G5 school say Hawaii if Hawaii's cost of attendance is higher (minus the tuition, etc.), assuming Hawaii chooses to pay the full amount. UNC will have the resources to pay the full amount, but if a G5 chooses to pay the full amount, they could potentially bring in better recruits, than a P5.

Based on what I read, if I read it correctly, I'm curious where this "bidding war" lingo is coming from?

One would hope App will be able to provide this supplement to their student-athletes. Of course that would require an AD with some tremendous fund raising skills and a Yosef Club that can effectively get as many App alums to give, which of course I know they are working hard at. I see I am down about 20 spots in my Yosef club rank and there are now 8015 actice/inactive donors when there were under 8000 a month ago.

Starting Aug. 1, schools can provide to student-athletes financial compensation — as part of full scholarships — that more accurately reflects the actual cost of going to college, as defined by the federal government and calculated by individual financial aid offices.

According to the NCAA: "Now, in addition to tuition, fees, books, and room and board, the scholarship will also include expenses such as academic-related supplies, transportation and other similar items. The value of those benefits can differ from campus to campus."

http://www.theadvertiser.com/story/spor ... /23861985/

WVAPPeer · Unread post by **WVAPPeer** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:33 am

Do the athletic trainers receive no compensation? - if so, I agree that this is something that needs to be addressed ---

bigdaddyg · Unread post by **bigdaddyg** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:20 am

I have always argued against this idea. I firmly believe it will be an accounting nightmare and will get out of hand quickly. Will the stud RB at Alabama really be content to receive the same compensation as does the backup punter or the redshirt freshman or the backup setter on the women's volleyball team? No way. And if I interpret the math correctly you are talking nearly $500 per month based on an annual payout? What 18-22 year old would turn down free money? I think every athlete should have to qualify and the subsidy should be need based. If an athlete gets a full ride and his family can't scrape together a few hundred a month for pizza and dating money (not to mention tats) then something is wrong. We send our son spending money each month and typically it is gone quickly. I would venture to say that a majority of athletes come from homes whose parents or guardians could easily scrape together something for their child each month. I don't have a problem with the athletic department or school giving athletes money to get back and forth to school for breaks.

AppStateNews · Unread post by **AppStateNews** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:12 pm

Yosef10 wrote: Who cares what they're spending they're money on. You go out there and sacrifice your body to play a game which brings in millions for the school and a "free education" for yourself. Hate to tell you boys but this "free education" doesn't really hold the value it did when most of you old timers were coming along. It's a basic American economic principle, you are PAID for the work you do. This is the only job in America where a "free education" is suppose to be sufficient. It's a joke give me a break and even the former lawyers of the NCAA know the entire system is bullshit they created simply by coming up with the term "student-athlete." Which brings me to just how counter-productive that term is when you can be cut strictly for athletic purposes. Not to mention they're expected to workout at 6AM then go to class then go watch film then practice then workout again THEN hit the library to study. Meanwhile you guys are up here trying to compare your minimum wage bullshit college job to the amount of time and effort these guys put in. Give me a break, and give the kids what they deserve

I was going to leave this alone until this statement..

First, I am not an old timer so I do see where you are coming from. Yes, athletes have to work extremely hard on the field/court as well as in the classroom. But, in a time where student loan debt is at an all time high, they are being paid. In fact, they are being paid more than the minimum wage (with tuition, room and board, meal plans, etc.) job that some students have to have to make ends meet.

I know plenty of students that graduated around the time I did (less than 10 years ago) that had close to $60,000 in student loans for undergrad only. And this was because their majors were so demanding, they could not have a job to be able to pay rent or eat. So, in 4 years, that's $15,000 a year. So, at the minimum wage of $7.25 an hour (was less than that most of my time in school), that is just over 2068 hours (without calculating any taxes -- which would mean more hours) -- roughly 39.78 hours a week AS WELL AS BEING A FULL TIME STUDENT.

Of course there are some students that are lucky enough to have parents/family members paying for their living expenses. But there are just as many, if not more, that are not fortunate to have that option.

So yes, the athletes, while they do work their tails off on the court/field, they are coming out with a college education with 0 debt whereas some of their peers are coming out with $60,000+. And let's not just assume they are working hard for our entertainment and to make money for the University/Athletic department. Every single one of those players have dreams/aspirations of getting on the next level of their sport -- so they are also working hard for that -- and the athletic department is providing them those tools (trainers, strength and conditioning, coaching, etc.)

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