What do we think about this?

[moonshine]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of how the new era is unfolding, but if you don't adjust to work in the new reality, you'll likely struggle to compete.

You assume that everyone wants to keep trying to keep up with the Joneses. This was the impetus for 1-AA football back in 1978, cost containment. Unless something drastic changes, it's a mater of when, not if, we find ourselves in that situation again. This time though we will have a lot more company in terms of the other G5 school being there with us.

It’s not about keeping up with the Joneses so much as it is possibly keeping “Jones” in the black and gold. Obviously App isn’t going to win bidding wars but having something to offer in line with peers will help to maintain competitiveness. Players being paid isn’t going away so I assume the program must adapt to the new reality or fans will know what it’s like to cheer for UNCC.

We, as fans, have been talking about the separation since before App leveled up. Most knew we needed to jump to (ultimately) remain in the 2nd tier. The break has probably taken longer than originally thought and multiple programs, no one even had on their bingo cards 10-15 years ago, have since jumped but this “P2” split has been a known variable.

I’m just glad App got to experience the top tier during my lifetime, it has been a blast! I’ll still enjoy watching App play our SBC brethren and the other left behinds. I just wish the attendance requirement was reintroduced and actually enforced for programs to remain in a specific tier.

[Saint3333]

I recall giving to Yosef when I got my first real paycheck. It might have been $25 . At the time it was a sacrifice. Through the ups and downs , there have been plenty, I found a way to keep it going , and growing. There is a limit though especially given the change in the priorities of college athletics and college athletes. Frankly I could do more but I’m just not motivated to do so. I think losing last years basketball team in mass was a defining moment. Personally. I know each one of those guys. Wake up call. Anyway …There are other needs and causes I see as more deserving.

2024 was the first time I gave more to academics than athletics. Likely a trend that will continue.

[AppfaninCAALand]

Playing D1 ball is a full-time job. I have no problem with paying the young men for their effort and commitment. I realize they get a free college education too, but that's also a huge drain on their time so there's no chance for a side gig. The game has changed and it's more than it used to be. Ignore the numbers tossed out for the SEC talent and focus on our guys. Picking up $25k-$35k a year is huge and something we should strive to do. For some key players it will need to be more. But if a stipend on tickets can provide that base I would support it gladly. $6 bucks for 7 home games, heck if I'd cut out some Bojangles that would cover it and we'd all be better off.

I've thought about this exact scenario, but unless I'm in a position where I can dictate what happens (i.e., an owner/employee relationship, which is generally the only reason you'd fund someone's paycheck) and/or just have unlimited income, I'm not going to be essentially paying for their salary. It just doesn't make sense to me. I'll gladly pay my part in Yosef Club support for scholarships, but I don't see myself ever donating a cent to NIL, ESPECIALLY considering the state it's in now. To me, it's like saying "Let me help pay your 25k-35k a year salary, and then you play well and get headhunted by a big school who can pay you more" so now I'm out my donation and you also play for a school I don't care about anymore a year later.

Just to add on because I know I got off topic a bit, but these "additional fees" are just going to keep compounding as other schools implement similar. It's 10% this year, 25% next year, then 50%, then everything is unaffordable in a heartbeat.

We have given to Yosef for many years. More than happy to contribute to scholarships. I will never give a dime to pay players any more than the scholarships. I paid for my kids to go and I am just not going to pay for a salary to someones kid who is getting a free ride.
As a side note I know a couple of ex athletes who have been approached for contributions to pay players. I'll clean it up and just say it was not accepted well by folks who were afraid to accept a hotdog from a resturant.

I bet they did not accept that well. I think you are like many other parents and I 100% can see why. I don't blame you at all.

As an athlete's parent, I am done with this whole circus.

[t4pizza]

Interesting. I agree with just about everything above. Hmmm. Perhaps I should reconsider. In any event the Athletic Department has been directed to develop a plan to ensure that we don’t get left behind. When I asked for clarification it was a bit murky but being in the top sixty when the split comes was basically the response. I don’t know that we can pull it off.

When I hit that 176 mil on Powerball tomorrow night, we'll be able to pull it off!

It is truly a sad testament about the current level of college athletics when a big win like that won't even really make a difference. The cash value of that is 89.4 million and after 37% federal income tax you are at 56.3 million. While that is a really nice day, Ohio State's NIL this year alone is reported at 20 million. So that gives what, 3 good years of NIL maybe 5 since App can do more with less. Hell, that couldn't even cover a stadium expansion where we actually provide seats (not bleachers) for the ticket holder. The costs associated with college football really have gotten out of control.

I really don't understand the obsession with putting seats in KBS (not bleachers). I get the comfort issue, but to pay that amount of money and decrease the capacity significantly just seems like a bad call. I can see doing certain sections if we are adding significant seats elsewhere. I found it interesting that Death Valley (Clemson) was full of bleachers (not seats) and is considered a premier facility.

I don't think we should do the entire stadium, bleachers are perfect for the entire student section as they never sit anyways, but eventually we are going to have to make our fans comfortable. We have been very fortunate that our attendance continues to be at record levels, but we are the exception. In a time of belt tightening, eventually we will need to offer superior amenities for our fans. I go to a lot of games at the Swamp, and they too have mostly bleachers, but they are also planning a renovation that will reduce capacity to make things more comfortable. I think eventually, and to me the sooner the better, we need to make more sections more comfortable for more fans.

[WASU 93]

I think the aspect I struggle with is trying to apply “value” to players, particularly at App. The eyeballs tell you that certain players are obviously more value based on projected rate of return. There is also value to backups as seen last Saturday. Where it gets tough is for that 3rd and 4th string QB, freshman linemen who most likely won’t play a snap this year. How about the backup punter? Everyone serves a purpose be it as scout team guys or in practice but is it fair to determine how much to pay our players? Who exactly makes that call? Is it negotiated between the player/parents/an uncle and the coaching staff? It was so much better when basically 85 guys were all treated equally. The whole thing is quickly spiraling out of control.

I was told that Florida St has a defensive lineman getting $850k. How is that working out for them and the dude that stroked that check?

Saban said watch what happens when they pay the wrong guys... Marvin Jones Jr at FSU a perfect example.

Exactly. This is all setting up for fans to turn on players. Players who are busts and don't earn their money better get ready for fans to come at them wanting a refund or something.

100% agree. And, there's a big difference between turning on pro player vs. an 18 year old phenom. This is where true NIL would be different from Pay for Play.

D'Eric King signed a NIL deal with the Florida Panthers the year we played Miami. He made appearances, designed apparel and had his own exclusive concession item. And, he played in 3 games that season and had more INT's than Passing TD's. A corporation can write that off as a failed marketing investment (or maybe they achieved what they wanted from the deal). But, an individual or collective that funded a "salary" for similar results would not have a positive ROI.

And, then there's the possibility for jealousy in the locker room dividing teammates or the haves and have nots.

[WASU 93]

Interesting. I agree with just about everything above. Hmmm. Perhaps I should reconsider. In any event the Athletic Department has been directed to develop a plan to ensure that we don’t get left behind. When I asked for clarification it was a bit murky but being in the top sixty when the split comes was basically the response. I don’t know that we can pull it off.

When I hit that 176 mil on Powerball tomorrow night, we'll be able to pull it off!

It is truly a sad testament about the current level of college athletics when a big win like that won't even really make a difference. The cash value of that is 89.4 million and after 37% federal income tax you are at 56.3 million. While that is a really nice day, Ohio State's NIL this year alone is reported at 20 million. So that gives what, 3 good years of NIL maybe 5 since App can do more with less. Hell, that couldn't even cover a stadium expansion where we actually provide seats (not bleachers) for the ticket holder. The costs associated with college football really have gotten out of control.

I really don't understand the obsession with putting seats in KBS (not bleachers). I get the comfort issue, but to pay that amount of money and decrease the capacity significantly just seems like a bad call. I can see doing certain sections if we are adding significant seats elsewhere. I found it interesting that Death Valley (Clemson) was full of bleachers (not seats) and is considered a premier facility.

I don't think we should do the entire stadium, bleachers are perfect for the entire student section as they never sit anyways, but eventually we are going to have to make our fans comfortable. We have been very fortunate that our attendance continues to be at record levels, but we are the exception. In a time of belt tightening, eventually we will need to offer superior amenities for our fans. I go to a lot of games at the Swamp, and they too have mostly bleachers, but they are also planning a renovation that will reduce capacity to make things more comfortable. I think eventually, and to me the sooner the better, we need to make more sections more comfortable for more fans.

Lambeau Field sells out at nearly 80,000 every game and the large majority of their seats are aluminum benches with no backs. Many of the Big 10 stadiums are also primarily bleachers. The horseshoe of Folsom Field is all bleachers.

Now wi-fi.......

[AppStFan1]

Saban said watch what happens when they pay the wrong guys... Marvin Jones Jr at FSU a perfect example.

Exactly. This is all setting up for fans to turn on players. Players who are busts and don't earn their money better get ready for fans to come at them wanting a refund or something.

Fans do that now. Fans aren’t going to turn on a guy because he isn’t providing return on NIL. This is going to end up doing one of two things. Self correct or eat itself. Collectives at these big schools are going to find out very quickly that while you can buy talent. You can’t buy a team or a championship.

Oh they do for the losses in general but I am thinking it will get worse. I bet those boosters at FSU are furious more now with the fact they have blown their money than just losing. Fans don't like losing in general but take millions from them and then keep losing. It just turns up a couple notches.

I think it eats itself before it self corrects. Your point about not being able to buy a team or title is something many of us could have told them for free. Dan Snyder use to spend big money at Washington but it never amounted to a title. The fact people have to learn that lesson again shows how people forget the past and thus are doomed to repeat it.

Donors writing those checks aren’t like fans in that there is a level of expectation to influence.

Typical fans want wins but I would hope that donors who want influence, which I know they do and am fine with, better expect wins as well. If their influence means more than wins then that is just selfish. If I was giving App 1M a year I would expect certain access but I would not be happy if we are not winning.

[AppStFan1]

Playing D1 ball is a full-time job. I have no problem with paying the young men for their effort and commitment. I realize they get a free college education too, but that's also a huge drain on their time so there's no chance for a side gig. The game has changed and it's more than it used to be. Ignore the numbers tossed out for the SEC talent and focus on our guys. Picking up $25k-$35k a year is huge and something we should strive to do. For some key players it will need to be more. But if a stipend on tickets can provide that base I would support it gladly. $6 bucks for 7 home games, heck if I'd cut out some Bojangles that would cover it and we'd all be better off.

I've thought about this exact scenario, but unless I'm in a position where I can dictate what happens (i.e., an owner/employee relationship, which is generally the only reason you'd fund someone's paycheck) and/or just have unlimited income, I'm not going to be essentially paying for their salary. It just doesn't make sense to me. I'll gladly pay my part in Yosef Club support for scholarships, but I don't see myself ever donating a cent to NIL, ESPECIALLY considering the state it's in now. To me, it's like saying "Let me help pay your 25k-35k a year salary, and then you play well and get headhunted by a big school who can pay you more" so now I'm out my donation and you also play for a school I don't care about anymore a year later.

Just to add on because I know I got off topic a bit, but these "additional fees" are just going to keep compounding as other schools implement similar. It's 10% this year, 25% next year, then 50%, then everything is unaffordable in a heartbeat.

We have given to Yosef for many years. More than happy to contribute to scholarships. I will never give a dime to pay players any more than the scholarships. I paid for my kids to go and I am just not going to pay for a salary to someones kid who is getting a free ride.
As a side note I know a couple of ex athletes who have been approached for contributions to pay players. I'll clean it up and just say it was not accepted well by folks who were afraid to accept a hotdog from a resturant.

I bet they did not accept that well. I think you are like many other parents and I 100% can see why. I don't blame you at all.

As an athlete's parent, I am done with this whole circus.

I am seeing that more and more and I can't blame parents. You know the old saying "pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered"? Well, I think CFB has a hog problem and some of this is going to blow up in faces. Imagine how many less problems we had before NIL and TP. There is nobody but a very small group of players, agents, and NIL marketing people who like this system better. I would say 85% of those involved in CFB as a player, coach, fan, booster, etc don't like this and feel exactly how you do.

[AppStFan1]

I think the aspect I struggle with is trying to apply “value” to players, particularly at App. The eyeballs tell you that certain players are obviously more value based on projected rate of return. There is also value to backups as seen last Saturday. Where it gets tough is for that 3rd and 4th string QB, freshman linemen who most likely won’t play a snap this year. How about the backup punter? Everyone serves a purpose be it as scout team guys or in practice but is it fair to determine how much to pay our players? Who exactly makes that call? Is it negotiated between the player/parents/an uncle and the coaching staff? It was so much better when basically 85 guys were all treated equally. The whole thing is quickly spiraling out of control.

I was told that Florida St has a defensive lineman getting $850k. How is that working out for them and the dude that stroked that check?

Saban said watch what happens when they pay the wrong guys... Marvin Jones Jr at FSU a perfect example.

Exactly. This is all setting up for fans to turn on players. Players who are busts and don't earn their money better get ready for fans to come at them wanting a refund or something.

100% agree. And, there's a big difference between turning on pro player vs. an 18 year old phenom. This is where true NIL would be different from Pay for Play.

D'Eric King signed a NIL deal with the Florida Panthers the year we played Miami. He made appearances, designed apparel and had his own exclusive concession item. And, he played in 3 games that season and had more INT's than Passing TD's. A corporation can write that off as a failed marketing investment (or maybe they achieved what they wanted from the deal). But, an individual or collective that funded a "salary" for similar results would not have a positive ROI.

And, then there's the possibility for jealousy in the locker room dividing teammates or the haves and have nots.

Agreed. My ROI is wins and if the athlete is not living up to it we got a problem. If you want to be treated like an adult and make big money then be prepared to face even more backlash and issues when you are not winning.

I think jealousy in a locker room is real. What happens if a starting QB is making 1M but gets hurt and the backup, who is making 25k, comes in and plays just as good? Would that guy be upset? Also, I wonder how many instances where a player's NIL agent is going to a head coach during the season trying to demand money or threatening a holdout?

[spacemonkey]

This is going to change over the years and it is going to go something like this.

Colleges are going to have to choose what level they want to compete and educate their fan bases as to what the fans should expect. The p2 will have to put a salary cap or a draft in or someone will "take their ball and go home".

Here is my most confident statement and I think UNC is well aware of this, some proud programs are going to go from conference champions to conference last place out of 20 and not sniff a conference championship but every 20 years....fans will lose interest and quit going.

App and all of college football should be wise about how they increase prices...there is a limit. I don't know where it is, but it is there.

Full disclosure....no way I would give to an NIL nor do I. I will buy tickets till they get too high and then I will watch on TV.....I will find something else to do with my entertainment dollar and make no mistake it is an entertainment dollar App is after. That being said....go App!!!!!!!!!!!!!! at whatever level we settle on.

[Apptiger]

I can see G5 schools like App putting players on a flat salary per each player on scholly or rostered. Slight increases per class year maybe. Star players will be eligible to earn more by making side deals for endorsements, etc.

P5 schools with almost unlimited money will be in an arms race until at some point donor monies will level out and they will probably self regulate. Scholarship limits were put in place to somewhat limit the arms race and were reduced through the 70's, 80's and early 90's from the 100+ level to 83 in the name of parity.

Next year they go back up to 105. Walk ons at most schools will largely be a thing of the past unless rosters are expanded (120 today, unlimited in off season). Coaches will again be offering scholarships and money to not only build their team but to keep players away from other teams as well. Just like the old days. Could paying a kid enough get him to forego a scholly and offer up more scholly roster spots??

It's a brave new world and it's not going to be "college" football much longer. Not sure where it's going but so far, I'm not loving it.

[Bigdaddyg1]

Where do some of you pro App NIL Collective guys think we will reach in terms of wins if we are magically able to pay these stud players you think we will magically get? If we go from a 9-3 team to a 10-2 and finish the season in the same bowl game is the extra money worth it?

[AppfaninCAALand]

I've thought about this exact scenario, but unless I'm in a position where I can dictate what happens (i.e., an owner/employee relationship, which is generally the only reason you'd fund someone's paycheck) and/or just have unlimited income, I'm not going to be essentially paying for their salary. It just doesn't make sense to me. I'll gladly pay my part in Yosef Club support for scholarships, but I don't see myself ever donating a cent to NIL, ESPECIALLY considering the state it's in now. To me, it's like saying "Let me help pay your 25k-35k a year salary, and then you play well and get headhunted by a big school who can pay you more" so now I'm out my donation and you also play for a school I don't care about anymore a year later.

Just to add on because I know I got off topic a bit, but these "additional fees" are just going to keep compounding as other schools implement similar. It's 10% this year, 25% next year, then 50%, then everything is unaffordable in a heartbeat.

We have given to Yosef for many years. More than happy to contribute to scholarships. I will never give a dime to pay players any more than the scholarships. I paid for my kids to go and I am just not going to pay for a salary to someones kid who is getting a free ride.
As a side note I know a couple of ex athletes who have been approached for contributions to pay players. I'll clean it up and just say it was not accepted well by folks who were afraid to accept a hotdog from a resturant.

I bet they did not accept that well. I think you are like many other parents and I 100% can see why. I don't blame you at all.

As an athlete's parent, I am done with this whole circus.

I am seeing that more and more and I can't blame parents. You know the old saying "pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered"? Well, I think CFB has a hog problem and some of this is going to blow up in faces. Imagine how many less problems we had before NIL and TP. There is nobody but a very small group of players, agents, and NIL marketing people who like this system better. I would say 85% of those involved in CFB as a player, coach, fan, booster, etc don't like this and feel exactly how you do.

If I have been so turned off by all the lies, misrepresentation, and the wasted time and money in a sport like field hockey, I cannot imagine what a nightmare it must be in the sports like football where real money is involved.

[Appst86]

Here's a good interview with Andrew Luck and Condoleezza Rice discussing Transfer Portal, NIL, and Pay-for-Play.

[311neers]

Interesting. I agree with just about everything above. Hmmm. Perhaps I should reconsider. In any event the Athletic Department has been directed to develop a plan to ensure that we don’t get left behind. When I asked for clarification it was a bit murky but being in the top sixty when the split comes was basically the response. I don’t know that we can pull it off.

When I hit that 176 mil on Powerball tomorrow night, we'll be able to pull it off!

It is truly a sad testament about the current level of college athletics when a big win like that won't even really make a difference. The cash value of that is 89.4 million and after 37% federal income tax you are at 56.3 million. While that is a really nice day, Ohio State's NIL this year alone is reported at 20 million. So that gives what, 3 good years of NIL maybe 5 since App can do more with less. Hell, that couldn't even cover a stadium expansion where we actually provide seats (not bleachers) for the ticket holder. The costs associated with college football really have gotten out of control.

I really don't understand the obsession with putting seats in KBS (not bleachers). I get the comfort issue, but to pay that amount of money and decrease the capacity significantly just seems like a bad call. I can see doing certain sections if we are adding significant seats elsewhere. I found it interesting that Death Valley (Clemson) was full of bleachers (not seats) and is considered a premier facility.

I don't think we should do the entire stadium, bleachers are perfect for the entire student section as they never sit anyways, but eventually we are going to have to make our fans comfortable. We have been very fortunate that our attendance continues to be at record levels, but we are the exception. In a time of belt tightening, eventually we will need to offer superior amenities for our fans. I go to a lot of games at the Swamp, and they too have mostly bleachers, but they are also planning a renovation that will reduce capacity to make things more comfortable. I think eventually, and to me the sooner the better, we need to make more sections more comfortable for more fans.

Easy to do seats for premium seats. Even my HS did this recently. From the 30 yard line to the 30 yard line do nice seats. Both sides lower level. Or 40 to the 40 doing just a few few sections. This would shrink capacity slightly and help lighten concourse and concession load some all while still being able to charge more for the seats because they are nicer. College stadiums hold more than NFL due to having bleachers over seats, can cram people in more.

[311neers]

Where do some of you pro App NIL Collective guys think we will reach in terms of wins if we are magically able to pay these stud players you think we will magically get? If we go from a 9-3 team to a 10-2 and finish the season in the same bowl game is the extra money worth it?

I’d love a 9-3 team to start! Let’s get there first.

[JTApps1]

I recall giving to Yosef when I got my first real paycheck. It might have been $25 . At the time it was a sacrifice. Through the ups and downs , there have been plenty, I found a way to keep it going , and growing. There is a limit though especially given the change in the priorities of college athletics and college athletes. Frankly I could do more but I’m just not motivated to do so. I think losing last years basketball team in mass was a defining moment. Personally. I know each one of those guys. Wake up call. Anyway …There are other needs and causes I see as more deserving.

2024 was the first time I gave more to academics than athletics. Likely a trend that will continue.

We've been reevaluating our giving/spending on athletics. I've been a YC member since I graduated, just like my parents, but it's hard to keep giving more and more when it seems like many athletes and the school are never satisfied. We as a family are giving more than ever yet our parking continues to be a mess, and few improvements in gameday experience are being made for the common man. Add in the mass exodus in basketball and it makes one question the sanity of putting thousands of dollars into what is basically entertainment. We'll continue to give enough to keep our seats, which also covers parking, but we won't give beyond that anymore. The only way I've considered participating in NIL is for specific sports like baseball where guys only get small partial-scholarship dollars.

[MrCraig]

My favorite thing about every NIL discussion is how many people literally just make stuff up.
"I'd bet 85% of players, coaches, etc. HATE this new system!" Given what evidence? Even a kid only getting a few bucks or some free food/merch is better than nothing at all.
"There's got to be jealousy in the locker room!" Why? Do professionals get jealous when a star player gets paid more than a bench piece? You want more money? Play better.
"I won't give a dime more than the value of a scholarship!" Why? This is still America, right? Don't people deserve to get paid for their work? If I'm putting my body on the line every Saturday, plus practice, conditioning, film study, etc. all on top of going to class and maintaining a higher GPA requirement than normal students, AND my performance helps bring in millions of dollars to the university, I'd expect to get a little more than ~$20k a year in scholarships.

[moonshine]

Here is my most confident statement and I think UNC is well aware of this, some proud programs are going to go from conference champions to conference last place out of 20 and not sniff a conference championship but every 20 years....fans will lose interest and quit going.

UNC/NCSU winning a conference title in football every 20 years would be a step up from their current rate as neither of them have etched their name on the hardware since around 1980.

[Capt. Ed]

We've come too far as a football school to give up now. We often sell out the stadium, game time is exciting, our winning record is among the best, we've upgraded our facilities, and developed a lot of new fans.

To get there, we had to compete on many levels to attract recruits and fans. Now we have a new battleground to face, NIL. NIL is the law of the land. We may disagree or even hate it, but it isn't going away.

To do that we need more money. I think adding to the ticket prices is a good idea. I also think we need to emphasize the importance of making contributions to App's Student-Athlete Development Program: https://appstatenil.com/

Let's be the best we can be. Whether you come to the games or watch on tv, if we want to see the best product we can put on the field, we'll have to step up our financial support.